Excellent so this last session is going to be a meeting of the working group and people who are interested in following the activities of the working group and helping us make.
Nishita Desai: The searches at llc more concrete, so we have two goals in today's discussion session.
Nishita Desai: So there's going to be two talks and the main agenda is essentially to find gaps, so we want to find gaps, first of all in our search coverage.
Nishita Desai: So all of the experiments, especially the major experiments atlas cms and added CB have been performing many other researchers, often with very similar benchmarks, so it would be nice to be able to find gaps in those searches, so that we can have.
full coverage and, secondly, of course, we also want to find gaps in signatures as well, if there are any new signatures that people have not thought of.
We want to know about that so there's already been a lot of work in the White Paper, and so on, but of course this is the place to discuss if you have more ideas about that so.
That was just to set the stage for what we want to talk about and then Giovanna could you maybe introduce the dogs.
Giovanna Cottin: Yes, things considered, welcome everybody to the last session so as Nikita commented, we have two talks of First, there is a summary.
Giovanna Cottin: Talk for both for atlassian listen and hgtv where they will present some requirements wishes on any know bottlenecks concerning a dancing gorda we have here with us Kabir if you made me want to share.
Giovanna Cottin: Your screen.
Giovanna Cottin: You have 20 minutes, please go ahead yeah.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: You can see the slides and also slides moving.
Giovanna Cottin: Yes, okay.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Great and thanks a lot yeah I will be presenting behalf of the lmt working group their requirements wishes and proposal that we currently have.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: To produce I love the summary plots so first of all, why do we want summary plots, we would like to show some consistent and meaningful comparisons of llp searches across experiment.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Because we know we're doing lots of searches, sometimes with different approaches and we want to focus on this.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Global comparison showing which is which analysis which experiments cover different ranges of faith based.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Do we manage to cover the whole face is to have gaps in between, and especially the focus of the plot to show and highlight the complementarity of two different approaches.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: So it might be that some cases we find regions that we thought were well covered, but they're actually not and might also influence future searches.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Just as a kind of a heads up the, of course, the main source of information for when it comes to reinterpretations will always be original and.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: So the idea of this plot this to focus the complementarity, not to make them super useful to for future interpretations.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: So I have you an example from run one So you see, in the same cloud atlas elysee dcms, of course, is very clear, you see each of them covering different regions.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: And, and this gives us an assumption here branch, the ratio 50%, and this does not contain enough information say what if my branch, which is 10% what is covered.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: This is not the purpose of the plot for that you can go to the visual analysis, the purpose of the pluses to highlight this kind of complementarity.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: So this was kind of very nice and then just kind of provocative example of the current situation here, you see.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: summary plucked from atlas and the corresponding one from cms and they're not at all comparative comparable so at first sight, they don't even have the same trends, the same shapes and different majors there, of course, different assumptions behind.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: atlas decided to.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: scale the branching ratio decided to give some content is a hidden text or model with the hex became to to longer articles and then the branch your age of sorts of those two llp.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: seem to be UK our life and then you get all those curves and different searches can be compared, in the same one.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: cms took a different approach, which is this assume the branching ratios hundred percent so it's much easier for interpretation, because we just have to scale those lines by your desire branching ratio.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: But it's more complex more difficult to compare the different strengths of the analysis, because of course you're Danny on looks extremely strong well the hedonic wants to look look my weaker.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: And that might not be the case in a realistic model, not to say that any of these choices of better words you're saying there's different choices i'm makes it difficult to compare those two analysis.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: OK, so now a bit of technicalities of course producing the summer classes is not trivial.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: First analysis might have published different benchmarks different choices assumptions whatever and then there's a kind of a technophile that running again and existing analysis as quite as not trivial and as i've actually different levels of complexity in the different experiments.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: And then there's additional point that we managed to truth and non llp searches to cover this is a prompt scenario under the infinite lifetimes scenario, the MySpace.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: This extremely informative, but this is even more work, because then we're dealing with Leslie slightly long list technology for analysis that we're not targeted for longer signals and we might require additional additional work to take into account.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: So falling in all this, we are aware of that's kind of the first block that we produce might be conditioned by this constraints and we will have a dedicated talk later, but Philip and the experience of travel for producing such summary thought.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Having all this in mind, it was still think it would be very useful, but to find what we would like to have in the future, so they can.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Prepare teacher analysis with some common benchmark already mind, so that we facilitate this kind of summary plot for future iterations.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: So today what we're showing here as many possible summary plus actually way too many, there are two goals here, hopefully from all this part of this larger set, we can identify a minimal set.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: for which we can, or we should be set up to produce summary plots almost right now with some minimal agreements.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: And then hopefully we can also agree on a larger set that we consider interesting but for some reason might require more work from analysis.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Maybe want to Carlo are we running a models for which they are not set up and the idea is that we can still agree on those and keep them keep them prepare so that the teacher analysis do interpretive models and then we facilitate feature summary but.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: I wouldn't be showing some particular proposals and just to say I mean there's nothing set in stone of course we're just wanted to have something to get the discussion rolling and everything is up for debate, not the beer have strong a really strong opinion on this particular choices.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: This says, well, of course, it will be discussion, but also their slides the links are.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: can be edited so please comment there directly, so that we can keep track of course hopefully have plenty of discussion time but in case there's not enough of you want to add some additional comments you can connect directly on the fly.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Okay, getting started all services hidden valley model since since the first one to discuss, you will see, you have lots of light on this.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: To set the scene, not to say that we consider this a more relevant model that i'm trying to discuss this more details to Spain, are facing and the rest of the proposals would be a bit faster.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: So this is a hidden valley model with some generic heavy mid year five year and, as in a scanner or service killer little key, then you have diagram like the one here.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Some visibility of up to five degrees of freedom, which are the masters lifetime to production for section, the branch erasers, and this is one of the.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Other was showing before in this case it's plots The lifetime and the Cross section time spanky ratio for some fixed choices of the master will find something to be a fear some.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Elements lmt masters also fixed, you can see here the color and the he assisted study Tyler for complementarity of the different analysis across the lifespan routine.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: And it will be also, of course, interesting to study complementarity along other dimensions of the five dimensional model that we have here.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Right now, we have different assumptions not bluffing cms is what I just discussed and, of course, each of them have different benefits or or not and we just think that we need to find some agreement that we can overlay all of them into the same spot.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: So wanted to use your some lessons that are high data from what we learned recently and not not from producing summary.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: from moving from the previous slide we produce plot along different access, for example, you see here this person blessed is now lifetime versus LP mama.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: And this is the first side so surprising that we have a gap here that there's not that visible in the previous one, simply because the sun many overland lines overlays.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: But turns out, we have a gap between those two regions within the tracker on the salary metairie ricky when we're talking about a 10% binary ratio, this is not, I mean this is hidden sorry this is visible in the original plot just need to be very careful picking just one set of llc master.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Then there are other regimes, when we look at how the public derived just now for one TV mediator.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: That here, it seems that we only have this kind of longer lifespan regime and this kind of pressure or the displays vertically regime is uncovered.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: But this particular this particular is a sweet spot for churches that simply interpret and other models for example susie displays vertically, so this is a TV, like our heartburn.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: This leaf exactly here and company we're not relating to this clause and analysis that is actually covering this regime this off the family that would like to to include.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: So, moving now into the actual proposal, the first one would be to create this for the existing ones on his hundred 25 two killers in a lifetime versus branching ratio.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Sorry yeah cross sections and well actually record architecture temperature ratio plot.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: We could assume here you got like 20 ratio for the key for some choice of the El tema.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: And just point out a few is already producing this plot and officially in business now from the reference here, it is exactly the overlay of adolescence cms lines that we would like to see in a in a summary of blood.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Of course, with the corresponding carriers, for some of us to see the lmt math is not consistent across lines but that's kind of what what can be done with the public material.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: A second proposal, which would be something different to scan the heavy mediator math versus lifetimes this now.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: goes from the low energy or the low energy scale, the high energy came, this is a transition that we usually don't look into.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: The surprise, of course, i'm choice for the El tema is a particular proposal, and if you have this is of course free some choice for the cross sections and frankly ratio.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: And visit one could have humility scholar productions or expect perfection some branch erases that this is meaningful when we were at the point of the of the higgs Lang.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: And this would be kind of example of the part of the writings of course of course that's completely made up just to put in here some of the lines of a wave, I think that could be could miss.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: To cut out in the prompt scenario, this is a.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: mediator going to forget this digesters we have analysis for us if there's vertex probably don't reach into the low low mass scale.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: This deviation for bs analysis distaste gets here, I put together all the different displays just delays just what we call an atlas color image ratio, I mean all of them here together and then at the edge will have something to visible or this kind of met a search.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: And this is concert different a different view of the of the current model this come this looks at the complimentary across the energy scale and there's something we don't usually do maybe we do have gap between the six like scale and the TV scale which we often and I like separately.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Okay i'm still in the same thinking, I was mostly focused on so far and.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: cms, but of course there's any CDs have results and value model and this because we could also be tired in the future by face or, for example.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Then we could look into different kind of slides now the lmt masters, the lifetime something part I was showing before from atlas.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: is of course now production mechanism assumes is the.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: surface as elysee Bead on, for example, this the results don't assume production via via hex in here, and it would would need to agree on some.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: coherent picture, so that we can overlays kind of big more life and for what production that would also be targeted by fazer with this most heavy Center production of adolescent cms that we can probably figure something out here.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: OK now switching completely model.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: A different model that we could look at this year Gemma speaks, you know that the.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: model was that he you know decatur hicks or set of gravity know and a nice feature of this model of an extremely rich final state, because you can target it with met with lessons with Jeff yee get.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: which makes me makes great it's kind of bridge phenomenology summary plot.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: There are three possible degrees of freedom mass lifetime in the branch ratio depends, which ones, you want to take our friends, want to fix the charity.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: gravity know essentially zero there's no special could be another degree of freedom would you look at the non SCI fi models that strategy and production from electroweak tablets.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: But okay we're trying to reduce degrees of freedom, so we could stay at zero for the moment.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: So, this would be now another another proposal it's just consider masters in a lifetime, the time assumption frankie ratio, for example, 50%.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: As you can see here now there's many more lines that could come here and, again, everything is made up, maybe some of those don't have fancy cvt maybe some are able to cover the whole whole face I don't really know.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: But, in particular, you have things like assessors displace get started with me on this place leptons but we're not entering before.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: And also there's a very nice at the prompt and then the lungs and build a year, but the the very long live long lives regime is now also covered their dedicated on that.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Okay, switching again now, having your lesson.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: This is.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: The target is again by all three experiments at the problem here is that there are different assumptions and model be used in each of them.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: The cms has a very minimal model with a heavy sugar only couples either electrons or meals and then the math and make sure you are independent centimeters and now LSD and analysts are also exploring this kind of multi family American slavery scenarios.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: And the other person will face in the future and future lps parents that are very competitive very competitive in descending order one TV regime, so we should also take those into account.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: For the proposal here actually comes very well almost copy paste it from the top of mind Monday by other.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: One is the kind of my grandma have a new trial lesson so single flavor what you're already doing, and for which we have this kind of manual overlays here, so this of course would be great to have an official way.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: We make them really comparable and the second proposal was this kind of ternary plus where we explore the multiplayer mixing.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Across the three generations, and this is what this was proposed here under this would be kind of a really nice summary plots on which the tree and the tree experiment could produce results.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Okay back to supersymmetry.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: This proposal now sounds good supersymmetry model with a long list we know which forms are harder.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: This is now use an adolescent cms although with different assumptions versus the blood from cms year, this is for a fixed Lino massive 2.4 TV.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: And a fixed new for an enormous, then the Green is treated simple as a neutral non interactive article you see here excuse and limits of until flies time.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: In our class the nucleus stakes are higher in a simulated and limited now as a function of to clean them up, they have all the different curves bunch of like.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: The fact that we, including this are harder and simulation This would also allow for a charge llp which is makes it very interesting to be there, for example in orange this kind of eds analysis, which we discussed long I don't know what is the reason, except that was observed.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: So along those lines, it will be the proposal a limit of glioma or supplies cancer very similar to this plot.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Of course, this requires some choices with some choices in every know mass, for example, more math, but could also look into small mass splitting, which is much more challenging and they're the limiter, of course, much richer.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: and, hopefully, including our hard earned simulations that we can include also the charge lumpy results in the plot, and this is one example where it.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: makes it very clear case that we should be trying to English a proper interpretation, so the red line here this comes from the prompt analysis so thanks for everything that keeps you from.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: doing a reinterpretations for slightly lameness meaning quite strong and performant up to basically order a bit below one meter lifetime, and so this is kind of i'm kind of amazed that we also need to take into account, want to be able to cover the full life.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Okay, switching now to dark photon This is again one Center one of those models, where every experiment has resolved, and unfortunately every parameters or South on different model.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: LSD be considered a minimal model where it's simply consumed the dark photon became to me on.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: adolescent cms have a model where the the start photon comes from a couple to the heck unfortunately both again from different models at us.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: As rbc models and just shown here cms simpler model became of the person became directly to dark potent.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: And, of course, this are some things that we should harmonize this plot here at the bottom that was produced internally, but if you Plus, this is an unofficial overlays of the Atlas and cms resolve and he hmm thanks two minutes.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: models and you see, I mean your receipt from from the shape of this that the two of us that are being something completely different you're targeting different regimes, and this is exactly what we want to highlight here the left is the plot the ability, the result.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Okay, this would be another proposal, then we should try to put all of this analysis into a important principle, this is cutting versus master, so this is redoing this.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Price we would need to be on a model that so that we can do this properly overlay and also commodity and comedies LCD for which we need to have some a few some way of production that is comparable between folks.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Okay i'm going to a bit faster and now back to susie is a GMC slept on this now, a proposal that we try to focus on low mass charged little key signature.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Compared to the TV church lmt from before, so this quite natural two degrees of freedom.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: In fact, we were already doing this today and At first it might look even similar problem is they're absolutely not because here this 10 to the minus two feet how here, it says Intel.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: does actually cms does much better in the low life from reaching.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: But this impersonal of this could we could overlay the same thoughts and then try to shoot on top reinterpretations from from searches so Derek slept in production here at the bottom.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Heavy saver charged particle here in the very long lesson routine maybe disappearing try this will be also a very nice benchmark model.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Okay rpg susi here the possibilities are endless.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: One SEC trying to be minimal would be for within different directory production with our PD case there's something we've already looking looking into a corner, with different rpg cufflinks so not going to them here is the same, that we have result in all of them.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Unfortunately, everybody seems to pick a different model which.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Okay, fine and I think this is also very interesting because then both extremes this comes from decay in the stable and for Lino as dedicated searches.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: And there's kind of a Gray area which just cross section is small around 200 300 GB scale.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: it's difficult to target and impact isn't something that's inclusive searches for display subjects should consider to have interpretations in this lecture week production have a long list.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Of the one proposal here would be seen a production of 2d to the ott or neutrino qq final stage.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: This makes it very challenging this almost this potential know with a prompt handles to help with So this is the soft ish final stage with all this place for product, which would be a really.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: really nice if we could come limits here and we probably have similar we're not interpreting consistent year.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Okay, I think this is my last one this now comes from LSD and cms and, mainly, and this is a dart awesome panel say with X going to meal.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: and preserve the Center here cms cms or mls Alex end right there already interpreting a similar model, you see here to kind of say lines to die of where each of them live.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: and adolescence also results in employment model and personal this should be also kind of an easy overlay of existing results that we took the and putting them together in the same plot to make your my summary thought.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Okay, listen to my last slide so walk through a separate proposal section many proposals for summary plot possibilities.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: And we would like to conversion, just a few hopefully the ones that require minimal overhead for existing analysis.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: So let's say our proposal that we think would be interesting, as this can be hidden Valley, the MSP he knows stock photos on leptons models of course everything up for discussion.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: And we want to discuss also a larger set of future summary plot where we can start preparing analysis and for those benchmarks producing Monte Carlo for future versions and make it easy.
As a feature.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: and JESSICA, the last word is of course a strong interest in terms of the prompts and missing energy based analysis to cover the very short and very long life and, unfortunately, it has a ruckus a bit more extra work but we've already doing it in a folder.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: covered here, at least for a few analysis doing it array i'm sure i've got a few more, but those are a few ones that came to my mind kind of quickly and yeah happy to hear your thoughts on this on this proposal with everybody thanks.
Giovanna Cottin: thanks for this very comprehensive dog, we have a few times of thing for a few for one question and remember, we will have a discussion session of their and their second talk, but I see that literally has a question, please go ahead.
Larry Lee: yeah thanks it's good to see you, by the way.
Larry Lee: So just quick question about the hadron slide that you had and and also, I guess there's a lot that you had on the final slide to um are their thoughts, is there a proposal for how to handle.
Larry Lee: How to present the different results across the different experiments, especially on the direct detection side.
Larry Lee: When the headroom ization models will differ.
Larry Lee: But I you even mentioned on this slide that the cms plot here on the Left assumes that.
Larry Lee: neutral glue we know is traveling you know and then that could have an effect on on on the comparison of of analyses.
Larry Lee: Has there been discussion about that.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Well, first of all nice to see you again um yeah no we haven't had too much assessing on this it's clear, this is probably a longer term proposal if we could agree on.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Our headroom models right now probably the ucs be in.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: overlaying and stating very explicitly that covers, and this is one of the.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: illustrative cloth that which should hopefully bring us to to do a few more things in common and and develop this kind of common hundred decision model, so that we can actually do a more apples to apples comparison.
Just to add, is there a location where cms and atlas explain their.
model, what exactly they use because I don't think the paper explains it very well.
Larry Lee: For atlas real quickly is that, even though.
Larry Lee: did put out a pub note with a very lengthy description of the pattern ization model that is used in the results in the right plan and on cms I don't think we have put out very much details, there are hundreds ization model.
Larry Lee: i'll follow up with you on that.
Giovanna Cottin: Okay, just for the sake of keeping keeping on time, thanks so much for the talk and now we have a second talk.
Giovanna Cottin: For a case study on guard for them specifically we have Phillip with us.
Philip James Ilten: Everybody can hear me.
Giovanna Cottin: Yes, we can.
Please good.
Philip James Ilten: me just share my screen here.
Philip James Ilten: So all right, can you see Can you see my slides now.
Giovanna Cottin: Yes, perfect.
Philip James Ilten: Okay, thanks so thanks for the invitation, this is an interesting talk in the fact that we're focusing on a specific summary plot.
Philip James Ilten: Specifically dark photon searches and kind of some of the.
Philip James Ilten: Beside behind the scenes work that go into these types of plus.
Philip James Ilten: And kind of the details of.
Philip James Ilten: How it used to make these plots and what are kind of the interesting features that we take away from these plots.
Philip James Ilten: So on that note i'm going to talk about the hl lsc Working Group report dark photon summary plot, which is one that I put together.
Philip James Ilten: with other people as well, it wasn't just me, but I did the technical production of the plot.
Philip James Ilten: And i'm going to compare this done to some other plots of summary plots for dark photons specifically physics beyond collider and as well the upcoming snowmass report.
Philip James Ilten: Coming from the rf six kind of Sub working group, so there are a lot of summary plots out there, like this and there are a lot of decisions that go into making them and so i'm going to try to.
Philip James Ilten: Talk about what those are so before I do this in detail i'm sure most of you are very familiar with how dark photons work in terms of the model building.
Philip James Ilten: But I think it's useful to summarize here because it's kind of critical in how we look at these plots.
Philip James Ilten: The idea that we have some sort of you want dark sector and this kinetic the mixes then with the standard model sectors, that means that, in the minimal model we have this kinetic mixing between.
Philip James Ilten: The dark photon which has some sort of mass and then off gel photons Center model photons.
Philip James Ilten: And so, in the in the model, then we have a number of parameters in the minimal model we have the dark photon mass, we have a mixing parameter g.
Philip James Ilten: And then, depending on the dark photon mass if the dark photon masses small enough.
Philip James Ilten: With respect to the dark matter mass than the dark photon decays visibly and this is the typical type of minimal model plot, that you will see being produced and provided in various summary papers.
Philip James Ilten: Of course you can relax both of these you can relax number two so, for example, you can allow the dark photon to a couple arbitrarily to.
Philip James Ilten: The various leptons and to the various other firm aeons, in which case you have 12 firming on couplings, and this will give you other models like Ellen you might have cell tower or B minus out.
Philip James Ilten: or people's on or whatever right, so you can go to all these other types of models just by relaxing these types of couplings.
Philip James Ilten: And then, of course, you also have some sort of dark with if, for example, you don't make this assumption about the mass of the dark photon with respect to the mass of the dark.
Philip James Ilten: matter what this means, though, is that you can take dark full time limits and you really can recast them to most general vector models.
Philip James Ilten: And this is one of the reasons why dark photons really are used in this way it's because it's a minimal model that allows you to recast these other map models.
Philip James Ilten: And there's automated ways to do this as well, which i'll talk about at the end with the with the dark cast package so let's talk about the kind of.
Philip James Ilten: main plot that I was working on for the HR la FC working group, so this is the HR like see dark proton summary plot, this is kind of the first iteration of this, and this is a draft plot.
Philip James Ilten: and the first thing that you'll notice right is that this combines two completely different models.
Philip James Ilten: So, in one case, we have the minimal dark photon model that's given by the sign and the blue and the other is that we have these models from cms an atlas.
Philip James Ilten: Where there's no longer a minimal minimal model it's a very specific model, and it makes very specific assumptions about how the higgs will then decay into the dark photon.
Philip James Ilten: And so, in this particular case, we assume a 10% production rate of things going to dark photons how that is done actually doesn't matter so much honestly.
Philip James Ilten: In terms of what kind of the precursor to getting those two dark photons is so whether it's any of those miles that was listed in the previous talk.
Philip James Ilten: That doesn't really matter so much it's really the 10% that matters right that you get 10% higgs going to to Doc photons in the end, you might have other things in that final state, but again, that doesn't really matter so much.
Philip James Ilten: And so, these are two very, very different models that are being overlaid on the same plot.
Philip James Ilten: And there are prompts limits which are kind of given by the the ones that you know kind of extend down here like this, and then there are displaced ones, and then there's the unification of these two as well.
Philip James Ilten: And so you'll notice in this first plot that kind of for the projection of the hl SEC we actually don't have much for this non minimal model that's just quite simply because.
Philip James Ilten: At the time that this initial draft plot was made there weren't other projections so.
Philip James Ilten: Then you see that as we go along and time we start getting these displays projections that come into play, so we have this place protections.
Philip James Ilten: From cms we have this place protections from atlas and then we have a combination of them, and again they're very different types of searches that are going on.
Philip James Ilten: And then again you'll see that this this changes, a little bit more, where we have an updated projection.
Philip James Ilten: So we have to you know move these limits down a little bit in terms of what we're looking in terms of this epsilon and then this is the final plot.
Philip James Ilten: Where you'll notice this change a little bit in terms of where the upper limit is being set, where the lower limit is being set, and then also whether we're looking at the coupling or the coupling Square.
Philip James Ilten: And these were just the preferences from the group that were made, and so you can see how kind of this has evolved over time, in terms of displaying this, so this is the final part that went into hl I see yellow report.
Philip James Ilten: So that leads me to some comments on this, which is that this summary plot it really depends on who you talk to some people like it, some people really don't like it.
Philip James Ilten: In general, in the literature, it is unusual because it makes us this middle model within a very, very specific model, and this is so that the Atlas cms results which are there's very specific model can then be overlaid on the minimum model.
Philip James Ilten: If you wanted to take the results these projections from Alison cms often the specific model and he wanted to recast them to the minimal model.
Philip James Ilten: I mean we look at this, but you know there's no sensitivity here right, quite simply because the expression fractions two photons is on the order of 1% but the thing that really kills you.
Philip James Ilten: Is that the production cross section for the higgs right at the lsc is very small in comparison to.
Philip James Ilten: What you get for the middle mile so here we're looking at 55 gigabytes, but if you, in contrast, you look at what the minimum models are coming from so primarily Ada production or pi zero production or even drill yet production is you get to hire masses.
Philip James Ilten: If we take a to production as an example, we have a cross section of roughly 1000 Melbourne right, so you take 100 mil a bar and which is your you know kind of cross section for permanent prototype collisions.
Philip James Ilten: And then you look at your average number of It is from this, which is on the order of 10.
Philip James Ilten: And then you look at the branching fraction two photons as well and it's 40% right so that's just kind of in terms of sheer luminosity of production of anything that will mix with the dark photon but it's just order of magnitude higher right so that.
Philip James Ilten: In terms of comparing these two it's very difficult, you could imagine that you take a dark photon model where you actually allow the dark photon.
Philip James Ilten: To have some sort of coupling directly to the higgs with some sort of a coupling but this also will have some sort of limited limited sensitivity, as well, so, in the end, for this plot what was decided on was that we just show these two very, very different models.
Philip James Ilten: And in one he said this benchmark of the higgs going to 10% dark photons, and this was quite simply chosen by the the existing or projected I should say higgs to invisible limit that we were expecting at that point.
Philip James Ilten: So that's why this was put together the way that it was and, of course, here, the important thing to understand is the focus was on the challenge see so we don't show any projections from other experiments at all, and that is how we got this plot, as it stands right now.
Philip James Ilten: So this is the HR see dark full time exercise, you can look at physics beyond colliders so physics behind platters they chose i'm doing three different separate scenarios.
Philip James Ilten: or three separate plots one was a plot that summarize kind of all of the minimal models one was that looked at near term projections, and one that looked at future projections.
Philip James Ilten: So this one here is kind of the one that shows everything and you'll see on this, for example, that these atlas and cms limits are not included and that's quite simple, simply because they're not the middle model.
Philip James Ilten: And so they're not included here, but the projections from LDC br because it is a minimal model.
Philip James Ilten: And so that is this dark photon plot from from physics behind clatters then they go down to projections for.
Philip James Ilten: kind of the near term, so this is phase or any 64 and then any 62 as well as brilliant experiments.
Philip James Ilten: And then you can look at long term where this becomes a much busier plot in terms of all these kind of options here.
Philip James Ilten: Now this, and this, these are only relevant to the PPC kind of mandate, which is physics behind collider so not letters So you see, on this plot, while it does contain many of the things here.
Philip James Ilten: It doesn't include the bell to projections, and it doesn't include the LCP projections, quite simply because this is, these are collider based searches.
Philip James Ilten: And so that's kind of what PVC did and then snowmass did something relatively similar except they tried to shove everything onto one plot.
Philip James Ilten: which makes for a very busy plot and makes it a little bit difficult to interpret and you see that they've also expanded.
Philip James Ilten: The the kind of mass range here, and so there were a lot of discussions about this, two weeks ago at the meeting in Cincinnati.
Philip James Ilten: Where was the rear flavors so master kind of meeting and there were dedicated sessions on this and we talked about this plot for at least an hour, I think.
Philip James Ilten: about how really to present it they're all sorts of discussions so, for example, you know if you take limits that we have on on on heavy charge leptons that kind of bounds the top So do you want to you know kind of bring down the top of the plot.
Philip James Ilten: And then, if you look at arguments for sort of grand unified theory is that also bounced the bottom so actually down to the bottom at something like 10 to the minus five, and if you put in something like.
Philip James Ilten: You know astrophysical constraints, then you will also have some sort of limiting behavior coming in from the right and that will minimize things as well, so the question is, do you put those types of towns in because they're really kind of rough hand wavy bounds.
Philip James Ilten: Do you limit the at least the limits on this because of those bounds there's a lot of questions to be asked there.
Philip James Ilten: And this is also really kind of a lot of discussion and, of course, you also asked well for these experiments, how do you put this in.
Philip James Ilten: You focus on timelines you focus on target you focus on, you know feasibility of the experiment in the proposal, so there are a lot of questions to be asked there and it's a difficult thing to you know kind of put forward and so i'm.
Philip James Ilten: Just comments on this right so PVC and snowmass they only show the minimal models they don't show these kind of kind of extended specific models.
Philip James Ilten: They focus on coupling rather than coupling squared this is really just an arbitrary decision about what you prefer, and then the limits on these really very on the space being highlighted so you'll notice that this no mass plot as much larger limit range than, for example, the PVC plot.
Philip James Ilten: And I should note though that right, this PVC plot, there are, I mean this is updated kind of projections with respect to what we had from from the PPC plot here as well, and any case though.
Philip James Ilten: In this kind of proposed experimental space, it is very messy.
Philip James Ilten: You really have to have some sort of organization so PVC chose these three plots so they had the summary relevant near term relevant long term and then snowmass.
Philip James Ilten: is being reworked, so this is not the final plot, and what they will do is they will likely remain with the single plot that they'll have some sort of timescale indication, and it will be condensed it that way, so that's kind of everything that I wanted to say about kind of the.
Philip James Ilten: Decisions about what go into these plots on the technical side I do want to say something, and this is, I have to admit, this is a bit of a plug for some of my work.
Philip James Ilten: But I was assured by the convenience that is OK, for me to briefly talk about this.
Philip James Ilten: So there's this dark cast package out there which collects all of these dark photon limits, it even includes the cms and atlas ones, which are not minimal, but it doesn't, it is not able to recast them quite simply because they're not provided in a form that is requested.
Philip James Ilten: But in any case, though, dark cast is just had a major update we've actually changed the link to where we have dark cast just to make it a little bit more clear.
Philip James Ilten: That it's a Community project rather having it sit under night kind of get lab namespace so we've moved into this dark cast.
Philip James Ilten: Spot and the big thing is that we can now recast models, where we have both vector couplings and actual coupling so we went from 15 three parameters to possibility of 27 three parameters, if you want.
Philip James Ilten: There are two papers now one is the original paper and then another one, which will be released shortly it's currently.
Philip James Ilten: going around have kind of a preview, but it will hopefully be released on the archive early next week, which is this accurate Axial vectors and dark cast.
Philip James Ilten: I just show a little snippet of code here to show you really kind of how easy it is to recast this so let's say you want to take a look at the people's on model.
Philip James Ilten: recast the ICP limit all you have to do is set up your model where it's a predefined model, the limit is already there.
Philip James Ilten: You just call recast it takes about you know, a second or two, and it will recast the model and then you're able to make the plot from that and it's it's as simple as that, and so.
Philip James Ilten: This is something that can really be used in plots like this, for example, where a lot of these limits were taken from things like this.
Philip James Ilten: So, in terms of how this works, the idea is that you basically have one model, a.
Philip James Ilten: Which is on the left hand of this first equation, and you want to get to model B, which is on the right hand of this equation.
Philip James Ilten: And you basically need to know the Cross section, you need to know the branch infraction you need to know the efficiency of the experiment and all of these are kind of hard to get set maybe the branching fraction.
Philip James Ilten: In terms of absolute numbers, so instead we work with ratios instead where we look at the ratio of the cross sections where a lot of absolutes cancel out.
Philip James Ilten: same thing then with the efficiencies as well, it means that you can make some nice assumptions about efficiencies for the experiments.
Philip James Ilten: And so what ends up happening is that we can then look at these ratios for the branching fraction ratio, we end up using kind of data driven techniques for doing this because if we're low mass.
Philip James Ilten: preservative QC it just doesn't work for us the Cross section ratio we use this kind of hidden hidden hidden cemetery map type models.
Philip James Ilten: Did you get these cross section ratios, and then the efficiency ratio what we do is we define this proper time producer region, and then we can use these to proper times to recast this.
Philip James Ilten: So this is the general idea of how it works in terms of the data that goes into it, we use, you know these kind of the famous our ratio plot where it's it's the ratio of production of hate drawn.
Philip James Ilten: From a plus or minus over you want me plus C minus and it's broken down by the very final states, and you can look at this in terms of.
Philip James Ilten: Phi like and omega like etc, etc, and then this is for the vector couplings and then in terms of the Axial couplings We then use the spectral functions from tada case.
Philip James Ilten: And we split it into basically these four components, so we have vector component for light vector component for strange, which is kind of sign one.
Philip James Ilten: And then we have Axial for light which is this red one, and then we have Axial for strange and, as you can see, for some of these there isn't a lot of data, which means that.
Philip James Ilten: In terms of the uncertainty on this it's not the best, but for limit setting like this it doesn't really matter.
Philip James Ilten: Because we're not talking, you know orders of magnitude changes, which means that the one that's more or less will stay within a factor of two, which is, which is perfectly fine.
Philip James Ilten: So this is an example of what this looks like in dark cast, so this is, if you use cast the updated dark cast with Axial couplings if you look at to higgs doublet model.
Philip James Ilten: Where we still have a vector like porter particle but everything now is defined in terms of the higgs model.
Philip James Ilten: And you can see, the various production mechanisms so that's how this plot here is categorized is in terms of production mechanism, because in recasting.
Philip James Ilten: that's actually kind of the thing that matters to you in terms of how you can be able to recast it and you'll see that also were able to recast neutrino scattering limits from from D minus cell balance, where we have things like boards, you know text, oh no and then charm to.
Philip James Ilten: And then you can look at what happens if you do this for the kind of projected future, so this is another thing that has been added to our cast is the ability to have all these projected balance.
Philip James Ilten: be able to be recast as well, so that's what this looks like here so that brings me to the end, though, which is that kind of a closing comments on this, which is that deciding on the summary plots is really, really hard.
Philip James Ilten: Trying to decide what you want to do in terms of those summary plots is hard.
Philip James Ilten: And then, once you've decided on those summary plots right the formatting of the summary plots is also very hard and it's not necessarily always so physics motivated right, it can be very, very much motivated in terms of.
Philip James Ilten: What exactly you're asking from the purpose of the exercise that you're doing so if it's a funding exercise, you of course want to be able to show.
Philip James Ilten: That you cover new ground, and so that means that you probably will choose your models differently right if it's a comparison between various experiments you kind of want to give.
Philip James Ilten: voice to all the experiments and so you'll maybe choose based off that so in terms of complementarity, you might try to emphasize complementarity and so that will choose.
Philip James Ilten: How you combine models which models you look at and so that kind of decision about what the purpose of the exercise that is really the difficult part that's The thing that drives all this.
Philip James Ilten: In terms of technically producing these plots it can be much less hard i'm not going to say easy but it depends on what you're trying to combine, but it can be significantly less hard so, for example.
Philip James Ilten: If you want to just do a minimal dark photon plot with darkness it's really quite easy so there's a lot of thought and that has to be made going into these.
Philip James Ilten: i'm also going to say that if if you if there are any missing projections are limits that you'd like to see in dark cast, please do just let me know we'll put them in we want to make it as complete as possible.
Philip James Ilten: But in general right making these types of plots there are a lot of considerations, one thing that I would really like to emphasize that which I haven't put on the slide is that.
Philip James Ilten: Yes, there are a lot of reasons why you make, plus the way you are, but I think it's also very important to keep theoretical underpinnings as part of that as well.
Philip James Ilten: And really consider at least what the input from the theory community is in terms of making those parts as well, but I think that's everything that I wanted to say so, thanks.
Giovanna Cottin: Now we have time for questions I see some hands Michael.
Michael Albrow: Please go ahead yeah thanks it's interesting the way you put that and one thing is that we see a nice to david's point masses usually there, but then you have.
Michael Albrow: See town or you have V, you have absolutely you have epsilon squared it'd be very nice if everybody could agree to always produce a CT plot against mass and that we can then compare directly there may be no reason not to do that.
Michael Albrow: Another point I have is that sermon most experiments say this is the limits with no background zero background, whereas in many experiments is totally unrealistic to think you have no background candidates and three and verse at her boss right so and that changes things completely.
Michael Albrow: So it would be really good if experiments would proposals would really estimate the backgrounds, they expect and apply the.
Michael Albrow: Two or three Sigma or four Sigma or five Sigma discovery, so that, including backgrounds, because that changes the picture a lot there's a couple of comments I have, thank you.
Philip James Ilten: So I can maybe respond to a few though so in terms of see top thoughts versus coupling or or whatever, I agree that for any type of display search for lifetime matters.
Philip James Ilten: That you very much want to actually provided as a three dimensional plot right, and so this this was kind of proposed in the original cast paper, which is that.
Philip James Ilten: You provide basically the ratio between standard model and your matter and your model as a function of lifetime and as a function of mass.
Philip James Ilten: Once you have that, then all the efficiency information that you need encoded about the experiment is already there right, so you don't have to make assumptions about.
Philip James Ilten: kind of the financial the proper time to do show area of the detector so, for example in these types of plants, the OECD.
Philip James Ilten: Displaced search that comes from one of these, one of these plots where you have see towel mass and then kind of this ratio.
Philip James Ilten: So that's where that comes from in terms of prompts searches, you can of course do this but it doesn't really matter so much you can still set limits from that with without too much issue right because.
Philip James Ilten: Now you're making an assumption about it being prompt and as long as you can make some good assumptions about that it's not so difficult to recast right off for purposes of that.
Philip James Ilten: So that's kind of on this this this this this first point, I think, really having.
Philip James Ilten: ratio as a function of C town and mass and as long as you're able to define the model that that ratio is made with then in general, you can reach asked to to pretty much anything you want, as long as you know how to define that model.
Philip James Ilten: up in terms of the the the projections i'm not sure exactly which projections you're talking about here.
Philip James Ilten: Maybe you can comment on that.
Michael Albrow: Well, just for yourself.
Philip James Ilten: Back on me.
Michael Albrow: So I mean just I don't pick out on anybody, but Methuselah I mean.
Michael Albrow: You gotta have they gotta have in one inverse out about we have as many, many candidates and things coming up from background on something you have.
Michael Albrow: You have a neutrinos coming up through the earth, making interactions and things like that, so the idea that you can run Methuselah for three and verse at battens i'm not have any candidates as background.
Michael Albrow: Especially if you can't measure the mass of the candidates very well, I mean that is not realistic, so it doesn't really make fair to show plots for experiments, where you assume zero background, also in.
Michael Albrow: In a So when I because i'm a facet and facet we claim we have zero background, if we have a four track vertex in the back in the vacuum that nothing standard what we can do.
Michael Albrow: So, but even that there is K zeros at decatur for trash trucks, the background, there and we have to take those things into account and discuss them but.
yeah.
Michael Albrow: yeah I mean.
Philip James Ilten: I I certainly agree and I can maybe say a few things on that as well right so so.
Philip James Ilten: I mean, I think the point is how how reliable, do you think these projections are and you think that they have been done with due diligence and with a realistic kind of.
Philip James Ilten: setup right so, for example, the belt to resolve the bell to projections here right this make a very strong assumption about the amount of luminosity they will have in the next 10 years.
Philip James Ilten: And a lot of people will say, well, maybe belt to actually will not achieve those luminosity roles right those those luminosity.
Philip James Ilten: targets and that that very well, might not be possible.
Philip James Ilten: For example, for https this really depends upon how their trigger operates and how much data time they're going to be able to take right again.
Philip James Ilten: These are assumptions that go into this for both bell to and https they do take into background for ICP background is taken into account the assumption is well we'll.
Philip James Ilten: be able to run for the entire bhl see.
Philip James Ilten: And will the triggering work as as it's expected to trigger to work right, so there, of course, assumptions going in there that are very different from the assumptions that are going to https or belt right same thing with, for example, the ship.
Philip James Ilten: projections here some of the questions about the ship projections are Do you really believe the QC D production kind of calculations that have been done there with kind of a modified version of pithy edgy you think that's reasonable or not.
Philip James Ilten: And then, of course, well what's the expectation of ship actually happening or not right that's a.
Philip James Ilten: Whole different question, but there are certainly for all of these right there are question marks on certain aspects of them will do you think this is a realistic assumption that goes into it.
Philip James Ilten: Whether it's background or runtime or triggering or whatever right these all have some sort of.
Philip James Ilten: Question like that, and I, I agree that it's important to take that into account and discuss them, I think that putting them into summary plots right, that is a very difficult thing to do.
Philip James Ilten: I think, at some point, if you think that the you know that the projection is completely unreasonable.
Philip James Ilten: At that point, then I think you need to have a discussion with the people who are making that summary plot or that projection plot right and asked for kind of a more realistic projection for that.
Michael Albrow: yeah Okay, and I would just ask why do you show this plot, for example, when you show phase two and ship and so on, which are not approved project, so you should, and please pass it, which is also the same similar status has been proposed, but not approved, yet.
Philip James Ilten: So, so if you'd like facet, to show in this plot, I strongly suggest that you contact the snowmass convener, so this is Stefan Stefan your glory and Michael Williams and contribute those projected bounce to the to the relevant relevant sub working groups for that.
Michael Albrow: Okay, they should know some thoughts, but I thank you.
Giovanna Cottin: Thanks Phillip any more questions for philly.
Giovanna Cottin: or in general about the the talks that we have in this session now also we have a model, a PDF file in the discussion session so you can take a loo yes we I think he has a question yeah.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: hey yeah Thank you yeah thanks for having this discussion together sounds has come back to the specific proposals were made by us and have us talk I don't know how you wanted to stretch the discussion I guess there's things to say about.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: Each of the specific proposals, but maybe we can I would suggest we start with insect one kind of to have you.
Nishita Desai: Could you maybe just share your slides.
yeah.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: sure.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: Okay brilliant Thank you can you go to the one when you compare the two yeah them cms and atlas ones so far.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: yeah that's one so um Okay, I think there's one easy win that we can make immediately, and it was kind of related also to what.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: Mike was saying that.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: One of the pluses and meters, the other ones and millimeters.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: Can we just right now agree which which unit, we should use, and even if it's we should use either tea towel, or just tell because it's true that if you see tell.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: The actual like the key position can differ from see tell by quite a lot due to the boost of the particles so maybe the best is if we just all agree to use a towel, and then we just pick a.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: scale of units and all we we keep the detail I don't mind and I just think that we just should agree on one, and this goes to almost all the summary plots that you proposed.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: just clarify what you mean just by dollars a seat down refers to.
tell her first has.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: Its see times, the main purpose lifetime of the longest possible but the actual decay position can be quite different from.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: Yet so sometimes you're tempted to kind of put overlay yeah if you overlay here the boundaries of the detector sometimes people tend to do that, but that's actually super misleading, so I think we should discourage people from doing that.
Michael Albrow: So that's why, at least at least we're not using entries thanks God we're not using.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: From now who knows.
James Beacham (he/him): He knows, in the future.
Nishita Desai: I mean, but.
Nishita Desai: But you know the the boost information actually sort of depends also on the production mode that you've chosen, and so the both the plots here.
Nishita Desai: sort of assume that you're producing the standard model fix by the standard production mechanisms.
Nishita Desai: And so you factor that out and it's only the branching fraction that's been excluded or or constrained, for which it makes sense to me to do it in terms of C town in terms of instead of doing it in terms of quantity that will change with the boost of the particle you know.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: yeah I mean I don't disagree with the initiator I I just think that whatever we do, we should just pick one, so if it's meters than that so just pick meters and see tell and everyone understands what the caveat so.
I think you had another comment.
Philip James Ilten: yeah I mean I guess it'd be nice that so in the final format of the plot right, I think you think that makes a lot of sense right.
Philip James Ilten: But it also be nice that if, when when these are provided right because he's as you've seen as you did, these are mass and production mechanism dependent right, so you define the model, but then you also have to define the mass.
Philip James Ilten: So it'd be nice if these were given or provided right in this kind of three dimensional space so kind of the.
Philip James Ilten: Z axis would be this upper limit on this on this branching fraction right and that effectively, is what I was talking about in the case of the dark photon as well it's effectively this.
Philip James Ilten: ratio between the model in the standard model or whatever, but it's roughly the same thing and then, and then you have mass and you have see towel, and then.
Philip James Ilten: If you want to recast it to a different model that's actually relatively easy to do I realized that some of these projections right are based on a very specific mass but it'd be nice to have it continuous.
Nishita Desai: yeah but then you really do need a 3D plot for that.
Philip James Ilten: And then you can well so yeah well, so you can provide like so so they're the plots right, but then also providing the information independently, which I think is important to do right so yeah yeah yeah so.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: I would say that this the bottom left is a three dimensional plot right the colors represent different moments, and we also in atlas provide this alternatively split I think it's the next slide.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: But or.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: You know, here we go.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: So this is what I guess you mean were here we've taken a slice in.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: In in the cross section, but there's also versions, where you do it in kind of two or three different slices so I guess, this is what you had in mind, but.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: I think, as you say, it depends on what you're trying to show here, the purpose of the plot on the left is to show that there was a gap in the coverage and this shows it very well.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: I think Okay, so long as that information is out there, you can do it either way, but I think probably the one that's easiest for everyone to converge on the moment is the one on site for whatever it was where you have.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: This format of branching fraction to see tell.
Philip James Ilten: So my point here is not.
Philip James Ilten: not what the not what the plot that you show as an actually I would I would remove information here honestly because.
Philip James Ilten: When you show all the masses and you're trying to show different experiments and other other limits as it can get very, very busy very fast right.
Philip James Ilten: My point is that, when the information is provided to make these plots right that you provide it in the three dimensional case, so if you go to the case where the LGBT three dimensional plot is given right.
Philip James Ilten: That that's how the information is provided right not displayed but guided and then, when you want to go make a plot like this, you can choose what you want to do.
Philip James Ilten: And then I would actually argue for less busy plot in this where you choose maybe to mass boy says, you have to separate you know plots and then you show the various limits for those those mass points.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: You can I.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: said at the beginning we're not trying to replace that they provide more information than the individual analysis I think I agree, so the LCD part has all the information that you want, and you would use the original plot.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: To reinterpret what we're trying to do is we'll have a simple blog or a more simple version, where we can easily compare across experiments.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: And that's why I also mentioned in the beginning, that the focus is on this kind of complementarity rather than making it super useful for any particular interpretation.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: So.
Philip James Ilten: I guess.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: yeah I mean, I think we all agree that be nice to have three dimensional information, but this is not a discrete access for the older historical searches, we have.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: allison cms, so I think it's something to work towards but I don't think it's always easy to paradise that in a continuous way.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: But kind of.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: Going I just want to focus on like concrete deliverables so so do we all agreed to just say see towel in meters away from now on.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: That.
Karri Folan DiPetrillo: So I, I guess, this sort of less the question I will ask, which is what is, what is the plan for like who is making these clients who is providing information.
Karri Folan DiPetrillo: Is it analyzers are supposed to provide information to the La see llp working group, if so, it doesn't the X axis that they used to provide the information doesn't really matter and the other co op working group can do the conversion.
Karri Folan DiPetrillo: But the the mechanism for how we're going to make these boxes, a little bit unclear to me so.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: Like, can I just bounce back that I agree that it's up to whoever makes the plus to in the end, decide how they present the information, but I think that the raw some reports coming at cms and.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: atlas and a CV To begin with, should at least be broadly comparable, I mean we have this example with the step towards right where, at first glance, to to a couple.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: Comparable searches, but one is in nanoseconds the other one is in meters and I think we should avoid that situation, even before we make the overall summary.
Juliette Alimena: sorry to interrupt there but.
Juliette Alimena: For the nanoseconds versus meters is that one of the plus that the slept on plot that's later and have your slides.
Nishita Desai: Yes, so.
Juliette Alimena: The CMOs plot, I want to point out that, on the right hand side it's in tau and to the left hand side in both vertical axes are there so Therefore, you can directly compare with that last one.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: Right, but not at a glance right because it's super and my point is it's super misleading if you just look at these two you think oh look they both go to 10 to the minus two and like okay.
Karri Folan DiPetrillo: Yes, I want to push back, I mean the.
Karri Folan DiPetrillo: vast majority of us have PhDs in physics like we know how to read plots and this is a really easy conversion to do.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: Anything maybe you wanna.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: same units.
Karri Folan DiPetrillo: Every if we want to do.
Karri Folan DiPetrillo: If we if we want to make substantial changes to the summary plots the thing I would focus on is more, the choice of masses and the branching ratio assumptions because that's something that requires producing Monte Carlo.
Karri Folan DiPetrillo: Which analyzers can use to do interpretations.
Philip James Ilten: I completely agree with that, I mean that there are very, very easy things to fix right we're talking about five seconds to fix unit conversions.
Philip James Ilten: versus things that are hard to fix or hard to change right which is understanding defect it detector efficiency as a function of lifetime things like this right that second one is hard The first one is easy, I really think the focus should be on the hard ones.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: I wanted to kick off the discussion with what I thought would be in uncontroversial think we can all do to make everyone's life easier, but I totally agree, we should agree on the branch infractions is that, for example as a next thing, maybe we should discuss that now instead.
José Zurita: So.
José Zurita: try my gentlemen for current.
Nishita Desai: yeah I will just for passing it to you anyway, since you.
José Zurita: Thank you know I mean I was really scared by it carries comments, I just want to point out that I don't know if they do that.
José Zurita: Analysis of every analogy submit information to to me, and then I have to do summary plot is you know what I would like to do so, I think probably what, at least in my mind, we are after he says sort of.
José Zurita: Agreement or consensual so, which is a minimal information that should be provided with a.
José Zurita: With an analysis, such that atlas can do that or summary plots, but they can readily in fair cms plots the they need to multiply or divide by three times today, or whatever I think that's that's all fine.
José Zurita: But the question would be to say, for instance in these hidden valley model that we were discussing, but I do we pointed out, there are five variables there.
José Zurita: So something that we should say you say it in any way that we can provide.
José Zurita: A file, be a scanner we're not going to do it let's just say that, and they say no, we will not do it Okay, can we provide a for the scan the two masses The lifetime or the sitar whatever you want to provide and the overall right.
José Zurita: Through sexual fight and 95 cents so overall right right, then the number of cards with you, this is a four dimensional and then they we can agree yes.
José Zurita: we've got we got provided information in it, whether interval level and then taking stock from fields thought we can say Okay, we could do something like darkest but for the hidden valley model.
José Zurita: Or we could not that we could just give the guideline such that anybody can, in principle, enable that and translate one float into the other.
José Zurita: Or we can say no, we will not do this, but we will all agree in to the slices of this for the parameter space that we're always going to present.
José Zurita: And then each of us has their favorite model their own community of favorite series a will can also present in every analysis is he from England.
José Zurita: They will be a common, a common couple of devices that we agree now, so I tried to to shape it from the full five information for this model to a bunch of.
José Zurita: To the slices and I think you have to do more of that with the we agree and they're working group somehow try to come up with recommendations of how this could be done.
José Zurita: The work for everybody, that is not a ton of work to have a ton of extra work, but at the same time can be reused so alone this gauge, I think this is all we should be discussing essentially falco this information can come full flow problem.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Because I think we have that information already just kind of four dimensional when i'm in one folding into two branches raises.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: The point where we, but this is the start of us working group, we should be providing.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: I mean, I think, at least what I had in mind, maybe we communicated that different take this if we provide if we produce those temporary flawed.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: So that we can first guide analysis experiments into using common benchmark and also provide information for America and to make this kind of physics.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: cleared a physics message of which regions are covered in which ones not.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Because I think the information from analysis, are there and and if not, clearly we providing will say we producing those should be a very strong case for anybody that's not proof, providing that information to actually include that.
José Zurita: Okay, so, so let me take vitamins and minerals protein in the blood of the working group not buddies in the blood, but what i'm saying this is someone comes right now and tells me.
José Zurita: Please give me the exclusion for the 750 GB guy that the case into 250 last a lifetime of one meter and ethical section or one peek over at the case only have half the time 2000 down to be a notary knows and I don't think we can get from any of the Plaza we showcase this limit.
José Zurita: I don't know if you agree with that statement or not.
that's that's fine, but I think Javier was already stressing that if you want to do reinterpretation for different branching fractions, then you need to go back to the original analysis anyway, you can't really do this with the summary plot.
José Zurita: So yeah yeah.
Nishita Desai: I think, in that sense, I think it sort of makes sense to have the branching fractions.
Nishita Desai: set to either hundred percent because I really don't see the point of setting it arbitrarily to some other value, I mean it doesn't.
doesn't necessarily make any sense.
Nishita Desai: So, then you just remove that there's just wrote a cross section of producing this particular final state.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: in whatever way, well, I think that the assumption of fixing a branch here, he is that we can put all plus in one case because, if we look at, for example, a cms because it's very useful for interpretations, but effectively they're all different models.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: So, putting them all in one clause is a bit misleading.
Doing.
Nishita Desai: Doing.
Nishita Desai: A one plot for one final state is that what you mean.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: No, I mean take some assumptions, so they can put all of them in a consistent model being that, as you cover brown to race or whatever other choice you want.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: But in this case, those lines are incompatible with each of them a few hundred percent graduates to this file their final state Okay, maybe the means not but in the sense that those are all different models effectively.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: and making some assumptions to Brian to ratio of course makes it less general but you still have the original analysis for interpretation but makes it the meaningful comparison when you put online from the same plot.
Margaret Lutz: And I think also one of the points is to be able to look at.
Margaret Lutz: Where we still have room to look and what's meaningful to look where where things are meaningful to look for it's best if we have something that's I don't know some sort of attempted realistic great branching.
Karri Folan DiPetrillo: So okay so some context for this particular upon is that all of the analyses interpreted in terms of different wrenching ratios.
Karri Folan DiPetrillo: And it is the summary plot that could be made in time for conferences for people presenting on with particle results to highlight a lot of analyses on one plot.
Karri Folan DiPetrillo: There are other.
Karri Folan DiPetrillo: things too long the particle summary plots made by cms which focus on say just the electronic decays how consistent masses assume 100% wrenching ratio to either bb dd or hotel.
Karri Folan DiPetrillo: And as we have more electronic analyses coming out the plan would be to have a separate set of electronic to case and those summary fonts, so I do I don't think this is calling it misleading and it gets like a, this is a little bit excessive right.
Karri Folan DiPetrillo: I think the point in this conversation is more.
Karri Folan DiPetrillo: What What do we want do we want to assume 100% retention ratio and do some templates for different decay modes, or do we want to just pick an arbitrary model and put all of the plots on the same on the analysis in the same spot.
Karri Folan DiPetrillo: I think both are valuable Is it too much to ask analyzers to do both I don't know, but I would like to conclusion on what what we're going to do.
Nishita Desai: I think if both can be done, that would be really super because the hundred percent branching ratio basically just gives me the answer to the question I have this model is it visible, is it ruled out or not right so.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: I make a suggestion, perhaps way a way that we could compromise between the two is to present in terms of say this UK coupling so the way that where it's a higgs hicks is like the case So these are kind of well understood.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: The case of the LP to whatever final state, but then, if we mentioned that on the plug in in the legend what was the assumption, I guess, we just kind of done already in the cms plot.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: But then to pick kind of more realistic number, then you can just you can the theorists can then just use that number to get back 200%.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: You have to go digging through the paper and then you also get the let's move experimental a spot where you can see kind of where the most interesting parameter space to target next experiment would be it's a fair compromise.
Nishita Desai: It would be if that was a constant number, the point is that the number would change with most.
example.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: So it would not be punching fraction it would just change with mass.
So you would.
You would, at all times, have to have access to the DK table of this object.
Which is doable it's not.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: just maybe what.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: What what what Curry proposal mean clutter cheese and the inputs and Lucy hundred percent for market provide a cms and we have the rescaling can provide both clubs.
will be great actually.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: yeah I think it seems there and then just team up, which is which.
Michael Albrow: Well there's another another issue, of course, which is in this block, for example, where you have your branch ratio 100% of the higgs which clearly is out.
Michael Albrow: Of the question I mean that there's a third axis, which is, in this case a slice at contra that 95% confidence level that you can also make the slice at a.
Michael Albrow: Five Sigma discovery or three single observation, and so, and which is very different for the different conscious and it raises the point.
Michael Albrow: When you show comparison between experiments with their three event or a fight event culture.
Michael Albrow: They may overlap, but it may be that within that control one experiment would see for events and other words found was the 40 events depends on the on the third access, if you like, so so these 2d plots which show a slice the certain contour height can be quite misleading.
Michael Albrow: But we don't have it's not the two, three or 40 graph paper.
Michael Albrow: Whatever.
Michael Albrow: You do what you can.
Okay, so just to summarize what we talked about so far, so I think we agreed that we are going to stick with sita and not go with boost depend on boost dependent final states.
Whether you choose to express it in meters or nanoseconds is not super important that's a trivial conversion, but it would be nice to have one, so that we can compare more easily but it's not crucial, and we said that we would have lots more that 100% and with you go like.
scholars so both of these can be made So these are things that we've agreed upon.
José Zurita: there's another thing that we've missed here, which is visible in the Atlas lot, which is that there is some mass information that we are missing, so should we talk about what exactly we want to do about that.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Are which marketing promotion humans.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: are available at.
Nishita Desai: The mass of the so if if your original particle is to extend the monsters, of course, fixed, but if you're producing a new scanner that's not the case, then there's the most of the.
Margaret Lutz: Most of this killer right.
Margaret Lutz: Masses of the scholars listed and.
Margaret Lutz: i'm not sure I understand the previous book, and these are we have we put them them LP mass ranges because.
Nishita Desai: The atlas plot shows the master ranges the cms Clark does not.
Louie Dartmoor Corpe: doesn't I think I think they are in the legendary.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: yeah yeah.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: So some choices of.
Nishita Desai: They just heard us fixed.
Nishita Desai: Fixed benchmarks finch sticks benchmark masters.
And then use.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: That, I think one of the proposals that he had is actually doing those verses mass to show the dependent actually this is kind of versus the MID mid day tomorrow and.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Because this other one sorry I put the arrow key mass and versus maybe tomorrow I think there's give us insight into yeah a few slices of this four dimensional four or five dimensional parameters space, which hopefully will illustrate better where we found.
Nishita Desai: yeah yeah so something like this because.
Nishita Desai: I mean, so we all know that this.
This hierarchy in masters would essentially change the kinematics of the final states, in the end, right, so it would have significant effect on what is the.
the beauty of the objects that comes out at the at the observed and.
Philip James Ilten: So.
Philip James Ilten: yeah so.
Philip James Ilten: I mean, I would I would come in here that I mean again study by making the same point, but if you go back to kind of the.
Philip James Ilten: The idea that's been posted a few times now, which is effectively you put your confidence limited or whatever as a function of this parameter space right.
Philip James Ilten: Most experiments have really rapid drop offs of this of this right, and so what that means is you can effectively get a 3D plot for free as a 2d plot.
Philip James Ilten: Where you define your kind of.
Philip James Ilten: color access in terms of brightness and darkness has kind of the the the Conference so, then you actually can encode all the information in a single plot so not only is it useful.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Can I show, I think we had an example and the different model is kind of an official overlay of in this quarter model, you see here the different colors are two different branch and ratios, I guess, this is what you're after.
Philip James Ilten: yeah would you take a continuous right which you can do you don't have to segment into those specific contours.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: But just you make it continuous I mean I guess depends on the number of analysis that we were overlaying but I mean.
Philip James Ilten: that's right.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: For my could be found yeah.
Philip James Ilten: that's right exactly.
This is actually this is kind of Nice, so if you have mass and sit down and then you have different regions for different launching dishes.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: Yes, I think, in back to the original I think I didn't include the plot, but if you just a second version of this plot where instead of showing each analysis.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: It just shows the kind of the best of each of them and then he chose different controls of branch ratios and 10% 1% and so on, and I think that.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: What we were up now yeah I mean if that's not too busy depends, as I said, how many analysis going to definitely an additional information that can be included.
So do people have comments on this agree disagree.
Okay, so we seem to have some some ideas which we will of course summarize and.
discuss more should we move on to another model before we end is there any any favorites that people would like to talk about.
Giovanna Cottin: are getting tired, but in any case so Javier slides are open for comments, so if you have any thoughts.
Giovanna Cottin: You can place them there.
And we should have another discussion for for the working group soon we will let everyone know when that will be.
Okay, so I think this is a good start where we've actually cataloged at least all the models and the kind of parameters that each model has so I think we need a little bit of back and forth to decide what kind of plants everybody wants to produce, but this can be done.
I mean doesn't have to be done online right now, I guess, I think this was an interesting exercise to talk about the one model that's the most popular one.
Talking about the other ones as well.
So does anyone have any concluding comments.
Any other convenience want to say something.
José Zurita: So, I only wanted to make the obvious remark that the which have to discuss the interpretations here, because obviously a very hot topic, and it is a lot of interest but.
José Zurita: Of course we, I mean as well, the group will also happy to to hear other needs or wishes or desires of the Community, I did on the experimental side on the theory side right so when a with.
José Zurita: Welcome, I mean I would email addresses or they have a we have a web based so you can always contact us and.
José Zurita: and tell us, I don't know, I would like to have a proper channel.
José Zurita: floor the Convention to help to explain the results or I am doing the shower for maybe like to have another Monte Carlo well that can be filled out, we can try to go and talk to a multicultural away to.
José Zurita: A collaboration PTA and try to tell them look there's a felt need for.
José Zurita: A large, I was in Korea was actually I was in Japan now well Steve, then we will tell you okay with these people is not interested, but I live, we would have tried, so we are certainly open to to do any of these kinds of.
José Zurita: off requests or meets the contract for the Community, I know this is an obvious thing to say, but I just wanted to say.
Thanks okay Thank you everyone it's been late on Friday so have a nice weekend and we'll hopefully see you all soon for more discussions and.
James Beacham (he/him): Also at the next workshop James you want to say something to end yeah just to maybe.
James Beacham (he/him): Close out the entire workshop thanks for sticking to the end thanks for everybody, that was the speakers and the convenience and the the chairs.
James Beacham (he/him): Think there's some been some really good discussions and some great information that has been passed around and yeah we totally look forward to.
James Beacham (he/him): LP 12 in the fall if you happen to be at CERN a few of the organizers are going to go over and grab ice cream beer in restaurant one feel free to join us, but otherwise yeah just echoing what Nikita said, thanks to everybody and have a great day great weekend.
Javier Montejo Berlingen: bye everybody.