16308402139: hour we're seeing a set of hi i'm scrolling over again part of this isn't for infinity i'm with the recent.
16308402139: highlights of everything happening, I was actually inviting Josh for different talk.
16308402139: He had written a part of the White Paper for the generators, but as he's one of the.
16308402139: Experts on the w.
16308402139: Three measurement.
16308402139: Now.
16308402139: He ended up saying hey could you give us a talk on wns instead of on the generators White Paper and we could just move your generators white papers to next month, so.
16308402139: We will be having this talk from Josh I see is my God.
16308402139: Isaiah son.
16308402139: Isaac son, thank you very much, I apologize for the wns measurement as siri overview today and then hopefully next month, he will gracious with his presence again for this White Paper on generators he's a formula postdoc.
16308402139: And he wrote his thesis on the w ws measurement so.
16308402139: we're really thankful to have him here, as this is a hot topic, and we look forward to hearing what he has to say, so thank you guys and thank you very much.
16308402139: Thank you guys, for having me on efficient on such short notice to switch topics i'm excited to talk about the w.
16308402139: and focus on, you know sort of the theory perspective that I have and addressing some of the hundreds of questions that people have come up and asked me about.
16308402139: Since, who was done everyone's like Oh, you did your thesis related to who can you tell me what you think Oh, you know your advisor a new road work on the resolute could tell us more about that so so it's going to be nice to actually talk about that and put that out there, so.
16308402139: The results i'm going to show his work that I have done in collaboration with Gal and then my former PhD advisor CC.
16308402139: And just to get things started off, I want to put out this very strong disclaimers everyone's and make sure i'm crystal clear on this.
16308402139: That all the results here are very preliminary i've only had you know a little under a week.
16308402139: To actually go through do all these companies, these calculations, you know and start double checking them so we're in the process of validating all of these everything here, you see women are very taken with a grain of salt.
16308402139: The CDs use data driven techniques to.
16308402139: Do.
16308402139: That better.
16308402139: So the CDF experiment use data driven techniques and i'm going to get into sort of improve the theory calculation and i'm going to get into sort of how this plays a role in different aspects of.
16308402139: The theory calculation and sort of how you can interpret these results, as I go through the talk.
16308402139: And if anyone is here just to hear a Punch line at the end of whether I think the the measurement is right or wrong or anything along those lines.
16308402139: or any firm numbers on what shift if I change something in the beauty calculation we don't have that yet so you're gonna have to wait a little while longer breath anything definitive on.
16308402139: The opinion of the rest of those authors on how these different questions that you will have brought up to us actually affect the extraction of the w.
16308402139: So just to get started, for those of you who may not have been a bunch of times doing actually precision calculations and otter week decisions, as you know, measuring these types of of the role.
16308402139: We we can actually calculate so in the in the standard model, you have a ton of electric friends, but you only have to uniquely defined.
16308402139: Three of them along with measuring the top math and his math and you can basically calculate any other electroweak parameters and so you can sort of see here that the w mass is related to alpha ngs and the the math so you can put those three and as your.
16308402139: input parameters that you've measured somewhere else, and you can go through, and you can actually calculate what the predicted w matches.
16308402139: And there's this delta ours, at the end, which contains all the loop corrections that you have to include So if you don't have this Delta, you can basically get the tree level relations.
16308402139: As you put in Luke you know you can start to have corrections to this, and this can be broken down into three major components of the Alpha term which is basically corrections do to move water corrections to find the coupling constant focus mainly on effect from white firm young.
16308402139: Has the delta row which is the corrections to the row parameter, which is directly related to the ratio of the w massive is the mass.
16308402139: And then you have all the other corrections that I just sort of long periods that are only dependent on the mass and they tend to come in logarithmically depending on the season.
16308402139: So you can put in these parameters and you can predict I didn't put in all the other parameters.
16308402139: But I took the data from the Jupiter groups, and this is sort of the state of the art most recent global electroweak fit from the Jupiter group back in 2013 you can see here that they get this MW down to a six maybe uncertain.
16308402139: And so the question now is yes bonds.
16308402139: can repeat the top.
16308402139: Just shifted yeah so so this, as I said, was from 2013 I don't think they've done a the Jupiter group has done a reset of these since then, so I just took it from the paper, and I have an update these are just either extraction from all the electrons.
16308402139: So then Now you can go and you can measure it directly experimentally at you know all these different experiments, you can measure them at you know the tevatron.
16308402139: lab and you can measure them, you know here atlas i've been told cms is working on this still i've been told it for quite some time so i'm really excited for cms to put out their results.
16308402139: And also, I want to point out that the elysee be results and I took this plot directly from the CDF papers, they sort of published at the same time that.
16308402139: led to the result was being published so it's not on the plot, but I just want to point out that the elysee, the result is given here with their uncertainties.
16308402139: It was actually really impressive that LSD was actually even able to measure w for the longest time no one thought they were going to be able to do it, so it was pretty exciting when they put out their results.
16308402139: I just want to point out that, if you look at this, you can see there's a seven Sigma tension between the standard model prediction from electroweak precision tests and from the CDS measurements and a three Sigma tension between CDF and atlas.
16308402139: So there's a lot of questions on what's the cause of all of this, the one that really interest me that I feel I need to look into more is CDF run to versus atlas to sort of look at how things were done differently, between those two views there's anything that.
16308402139: So then moving on how do you actually go about measuring the Web so many of you know you can measure the Z Max very easily right you just take your two lessons that come out you.
16308402139: Precisely measure the positions they are new detector you precisely measure the energy right electrons are you have really good control over, but if you try to do this with a w you can't use jets because QC will.
16308402139: kill you with the background, so you have to do something else you still want to look at the laptop neutrino final state and you can't measure the nutrients, we have to look at the variables that are very sensitive to the web.
16308402139: So you can look at.
16308402139: history of the world which here i'm just going to highlight the the transverse mass.
16308402139: But there's the transverse mass just the PT of the laptop and the PT of the neutrinos all of these if you don't have tct have kinematics endpoints in the case of the PC this is that half the w math and the case of the transverse math this is apt to sell.
16308402139: This the plot that i'm going to show up empty are going to look more sharply teeth in it, and this is because there's a huge effect from detector resolution sneering which I don't have the simulations of.
16308402139: You know I don't have the detector simulations PDF so I don't include those in my plot when I get.
16308402139: So then, since you can't directly measure this and just sort of see where the peak exactly lies, and you know figure out what the math is like you would for the higgs or the Z.
16308402139: You have to have a very precise theory calculation that has a parameter that you can tune, which is the mass of The Hague you then generate you know some.
16308402139: obscene number of templates of the different masses, you have you know, maybe 10,000 theory predictions, each with a slightly different fw.
16308402139: And then you can sit these templates to your experimental data, and you can do like a Chi square test, and you can sort of.
16308402139: extract with a minimum value is, and you can then get your w map from this very complicated procedure.
16308402139: is one of the reasons that takes so many years for people to measure this, along with you really have to understand your systematic and your defect here, surely get down to the precision of these.
16308402139: So now i'm going to talk a little bit about the theory calculation, and you know, we need a precise calculation I don't know how to do things with the factors that I know how to do these series so i'm going to talk about those and leave the detector modeling and all those other systematic.
16308402139: If we were to just do a fixed order calculation you say Oh, you know I know how to do.
16308402139: A tree level calculation of one loop calculation that to route calculation, you know people are doing remove calculations now is i'm just going to go and do those calculations.
16308402139: And we look at the trailer its momentum of the Z the w know some particle and what you'll find is that the preservatives series has a leading term that goes like alpha asked to the end times log to the two and PT over MW in the case of the web.
16308402139: And if you take a limit that PC goes to zero this series doesn't converge and what you'll see is at the low PT you'll be oscillating behavior as you go to these higher and higher order calculations.
16308402139: If you go and look at some of these fixed order calculations from nll jet you'll see that they have a cut at like 10 G or 20 G, and they don't look at anything below that because they know their theory calculations aren't reliable due to this non convergence of the fraternity.
16308402139: However, it's possible and it's been shown that these show up in a very specific for with very specific coefficients so we know how to.
16308402139: analytically reframe all these coefficients and basically doing all order calculation, we can.
16308402139: calculate all of the terms that go like alpha as to the end log to two and sub leading ones that are fast to that to add minus or sorry log to the to add minus one etc, we know how to do this systematically and we can then.
16308402139: You know, use the preservative calculations to systematically improve this calculation, as we go and here's just sort of a plot comparing the results to the CDF run today.
16308402139: To show to show you that we get this nice behavior that the the PC that the Cross section goes to zero as the PC goes to zero, you get this nice PPC know diversion structures here.
16308402139: So there's two ways of doing recently and I talked mainly about you know previously about the analytic side but there's also the numerical side.
16308402139: So numeric is sort of parkland showers you know every day you go and you hook up your calculation to things like 50 a Sherpa her wig and you do a part on shower to sort of.
16308402139: capture these effects, and some of the pros about this is with these engineers, if you get nice exclusive final things you can actually you know put them in and run them completely through your detector you have all the JET information.
16308402139: These are really, really quick some of the downsides are that, as, at least as of just talk the only at leading log accuracy and they have some of the sub leading effects there's a lot of ongoing work to sort of improve this a higher logarithmic accuracy.
16308402139: But this is sort of I wanted to talk about this, because this was the technique that was used by atlas to actually extracted wns they only use 50 uploads how has.
16308402139: The other side, you have formal Reformation i'm there's you know many different formalism to do this, many people have different schemes to do this.
16308402139: I did the columns over certain information so i'm going to focus on columns over sermon retaliation which has done an impact parameters say for vcs.
16308402139: So you sort of look at you know you know the proton aren't hitting directly head on, so there's some impact frame between them, which you can then use innocence some of all possible combinations of radiated glue on to get to give us a fixed terms with momentum of the game goes on.
16308402139: The pros of this is that you know, this is a systematic approach we know how to improve the accuracy order by orders so it's a very high accuracy calculation very precise.
16308402139: of some of the downsides are in doing this approach, we sort of integrated out all the electronic activity, so we can't tell you how many jets there were in the event or.
16308402139: What is he for the event, we lose all of this information really have information about the states that we put in to begin with, so we have faith only on the final statement.
16308402139: Also, this involves a lot of.
16308402139: So just by going to higher order in tcp record in six order requires a lot of computational resources, a similar thing happens here, where you need a lot of computational resources to get the to get these precisely, and this is sort of the tool that PDF.
16308402139: So what is the columns over sermon or information form wisdom so it's this nice beautiful equation that you can all see here, where the the.
16308402139: Where the first piece, that we want to talk about is the seat of hot factor, you might hear this in part on shower language, where you have the suitor cost per action which is this dancing factors in the limit that PT ghost is here that sort of helps to control this.
16308402139: You have the Co linear factors which are the combinations of the hard splitting kernels with a PDF and the sort of help to.
16308402139: Ensure that the Cross section you're producing is consistent with the six sort of cross section, so if you have these at a fixed for at a certain order and you also get the total cross section to be at the same.
16308402139: The sooner cost factor is expanded here below and you can see here there's the ater years is the leading log coefficient, this is the one that controls the leading.
16308402139: logarithmic powers of the double log, if you will, and then there's the the coefficients which contains the sub waiting logs and then, finally, the Co linear coefficient see all of these are fraternity calculable you can systematically improve your calculation order by order.
16308402139: So, for those of you who are familiar with this, I just sort of want to go over when you hear the language out there when people say I have a and then ll what's anello.
16308402139: Recent calculation, what does that actually mean, so this is going to go, you know there's been a lot of.
16308402139: Discussion over the past years on trying to come up with consistent definitions of this because of all this content slightly different.
16308402139: Definition, so we came up with a Community agreed upon set definitions and this depends only on the interpretive physics that you're using to extract these tools.
16308402139: And so just sort of highlight some of the pieces.
16308402139: This is the accuracy that was used by CBS so this means that they had a three loops cost anomalous dimensions which means they basically calculated the.
16308402139: vertex for qq bar goes to gauge both on several engage those on two three loops and kept the leading divergence.
16308402139: They have the non cost the tools which is a sub leading divergence, and then they have the boundary condition, which is a hardcore near term.
16308402139: At alpha S, and then they match at high trousers and then eventually the automation is all done in the Olympics use he goes to zero, so you have to match in the high PT limits of some fixed or the calculations, because the information formalism breaks down at high speeds.
16308402139: there's been a lot of discussion in the literature about or How did the blogosphere I guess and.
16308402139: By people approaching me about the difference between what CDF us and what wrestlers to flash residences just version two of the code now has so I just want to point out that this is now and three ll for nll.
16308402139: And then, I just wanted to point out that I believe this is a true statement that, as of now, all of the preservatives components of that are needed to go to end for ll.
16308402139: that's just the end for LM know prime so that's a typo plus three Lol are available, but no one has actually finished coding this up into any other information codes to give predictions, this is ongoing effort.
16308402139: yeah.
16308402139: I can, I can repeat the question.
16308402139: So the question was what is the difference between the prime and the unfair, and so this basically means that those you look at the pattern here you'll see that.
16308402139: The cost anomalous dimension is always one order higher than the non cost anomalous dimension.
16308402139: And if it is unprimed than the non cost anomalous dimension is always one order higher than the boundary conditions you're using to get the heart disease, and if it's trying, it means you're using the one order you're using the same order as the non cost to the boundary conditions and.
16308402139: This was a long discussion that people had all over this over many, many years.
16308402139: So that's sort of defines the longer than the accuracy of the next question is.
16308402139: When you do these calculations you'll notice that the sooner call factor has this lower bound, which is see one overview squares.
16308402139: are going to be integrating all over all of these, we have to take a look at that he goes to zero, eventually, and as I said, A and B depend on alpha so there's an alpha evaluated at this scale see you went over be eventually if you take a little bit he goes to zero you're evaluating.
16308402139: sorry he goes to infinity to zero.
16308402139: But he goes to infinity so your scale goes to zero, and so now, you have to evaluate alpha s at zero and we all know, this is on preservatives, so we don't know how to calculate.
16308402139: We have to somehow to find a prescription that sort of cuts off the lower bound of this integral no way this is done is through.
16308402139: An opportunity to cut off and i'm going to focus on the beast art description.
16308402139: Which is where you basically define a arbitrary maximum V that you're willing to go to and you basically say that you're only going to you're going to replace all these and the calculation with this be stars we're now.
16308402139: Just be sorry we're now it has this functional form that sort of limit, though, the high tail so that, as you take the to infinity he goes to tend towards the map.
16308402139: So this then helps to eliminate this non preservatives region of your calculations, however, now that we have eliminated it it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, so we actually have to then put in a non preservatives functional forum.
16308402139: And this is what is us, this is the deal, and why form, which is what was used by the CDF experiments.
16308402139: And I just want to point out some of the features of this so there's a G one term, which is just the global firms.
16308402139: it's all proportional to the squares and this comes from arguments by Collins and sober and sermons that this leading coefficient should go like the squares there's a log Q over to not which basically just captures the.
16308402139: You know the scale variation of the of the hard skills your interaction and is argued also buy homes over that this should be there as well.
16308402139: Of this form and then there's another term here G one G three, which is sort of years to capture sort of the invariant mass of your collider scaling.
16308402139: So this is done in a global sense, you have to fit both you know, the low energy fixed target experiments the tevatron experiments and the elysee experience, so you need something that captures the scaling of the Center of mass.
16308402139: In the CDS measurements They fix the G one G three from the global fit you might say, well gee three has in some sense acute dependence with it excellent access to.
16308402139: But they actually investigated the effects of this G three is already close to zero, and they found that modifying this within the allowed region basically has no impact on their measurement.
16308402139: However, as I mentioned that you did a data driven approach to sort of get the data, one of the things they did was they modified g to to ensure that the resignation calculation exactly reproduce their PCs the spectrum up to about 30.
16308402139: People, I just want to point out that the w is a massive difference, this is something I have to point out is that well this should be two different opportunity functions, because the w magazine that aren't the same the difference between these supposed to be captured by this logs you.
16308402139: This right now the one of the other concerns that he was brought up is there is no flavor dependence i'm going to go into some more details on flavor dependence on the next slide and another thing that people are pointing out to me is that.
16308402139: It wasn't considered if you completely change this non for derivative functional for, and how does it change your predicted results.
16308402139: I expect it to not be super huge, but this is something that needs to be investigated and you can see here on the plot, we have two different functional forums.
16308402139: And these two are pretty consistent with each other, I don't have the uncertainties years but within if I were to overlay the uncertainties will be consistent within.
16308402139: So there are many ways of cutting off is be I mean you could, if you could be square square root of one plus B squared but people don't intrude one for speech at the end, do you have to change this as functional as you change that quite often.
16308402139: Be careful in principle, yes, as you change highly correlated the derivatives like they're tied together so, so this is fit with a piece of research, and so we have to use these two sisters.
16308402139: were to do something else in front of all you'd have to rethink your non productive and you might need like a different result of view truncated in a different way.
16308402139: But how do you, you know, changing the Max off the changes that there's all these different things that play a role, and in the end.
16308402139: you'll just have to fit it to data and then get your uncertainties one will fit.
16308402139: Yes, eventually, someone, we should go look and see how this impacts m w I don't think it's going to be large enough for us to basically the society things.
16308402139: larger than their current on certain much smaller than.
16308402139: A question on zoom and Scarlet can read that.
16308402139: And the question is, does the value of the MAC still have the impact parameter implications and the experiment, you know.
16308402139: So it still has the is still the same like impact parameters.
16308402139: implications but we sort of have this cut off where basically if the two are far enough apart, we sort of, say, this is now a long distance physics thing we don't know how to calculate it, so we do them prescription to cut it all.
16308402139: reasonable way from fluids reasonable.
16308402139: Those are all great question.
16308402139: So then flavor dependence I I didn't do anything personally on player dependence this paper was brought to my attention that there was one study.
16308402139: Back in 2019 that actually studied flavor dependence for the elysee at 70 TV and they proposed the different.
16308402139: The different functional Forum, which is very similar just doesn't have the G one G returns.
16308402139: And they have the GA which they're going to say is not universal but it's going to be flavor dependence.
16308402139: And then they have this gene EVO which I argued should be there should be universal from tcp arguments tmt arguments.
16308402139: So they leave that fixed and universal it can differ, I should say, between course and gluons but here we're only looking at Tiki bar, this will save so we're just going to say that.
16308402139: They did these studies, where they looked at these five different sets of variations that they had and they found of the following shifts.
16308402139: In the w mass basically comparing it to what atlas found they found that the shift could be up to 10 and easy.
16308402139: Over this is at the elysee is the first study it's the 10 me the shift is just for one observable.
16308402139: And so you still have to include this in a global fits by combining the difference observable that you have to see really what the total impact is.
16308402139: On your extracted MW and so none of those have been done yet so additional studies needs to be done to sort of see what the global impact would be.
16308402139: On your final extraction and it has to be redone for the tevatron because the tevatron and the elysee have different initial stage, and so you have different contributions, including include contributing to the process.
16308402139: Again, I just want to point out that.
16308402139: Some of this might be captured using their data driven techniques for the Z but not all of it, because the w in the Z have different initial stage, so it just needs to be investigated, but there are some data driven techniques that might capture some.
16308402139: So now i'm going to get on to the next big thing that people have pointed out in the blogosphere about issues with using the rest of the code is.
Daniel Froidevaux: Josh can you hear me.
16308402139: yep I can hear you.
Daniel Froidevaux: it's Danielle or from CERN.
Daniel Froidevaux: about this previous discussion the previous slide.
Daniel Froidevaux: I just wanted to make a comment to be sure I understood what you were saying.
Daniel Froidevaux: This 10 MTV was not calculated as you say, for tevatron so it could be different, no reason, particularly, it should be like an order of magnitude smaller right.
Daniel Froidevaux: But what I don't understand at all is the last bullet on this slide any data driven techniques cannot capture artist using just the zebras on cannot capture in any way.
Daniel Froidevaux: Anything non pejorative I don't see how this is possible at all, because this paper you're quoting was actually using of course sort of the ratio of the w to CP PT to to extract these results.
16308402139: But yeah so so the detailed or the flavor defendants needs to be done, you know differently and can't be extracted just from looking at the Z but you know the overall scale can still you know.
16308402139: be improved from taking diseases.
16308402139: So, moving on to the angular coefficients.
16308402139: This is something that people have pointed out, is.
16308402139: You know the difference between residents and residents to use angular coefficient differences and So what do we mean by the angular coefficient.
16308402139: So you can go and you can calculate order by orders, the kinematics the final state leptons and you see that you can represent them by these.
16308402139: Various angular coefficients so you have here this reading turn and there's a fourth those are the only two that appear at leading order in the calculation.
16308402139: that you have a zero a one a two a three that all appear at next deleting order in the calculation and then you have a five a six and a seven that first year at next to next to leading order in the calculations.
16308402139: And then extract these experiments, at least by basically taking your differential cross section in coastline data and five, so this is the column super angle Collins over theta angle and the columns over five angle, so this is a special rest frame of the wi fi both on.
16308402139: You can multiply them by the projection operators, which is just basically the terms, not including the eighth.
16308402139: divided by the total integrated, cross section, and you can extract out the coefficients by relating this projected operator to the coefficient.
16308402139: Of a little off the bottom think that's five and a fourth but i'm not going to show anything about a five day 67 because, as I said, they don't come in until next the next reading order so they're super time.
16308402139: And they don't really contribute to anything and I don't even know if anyone has been able to experimentally measure absolutely not consistent with do I should double check on that, but.
16308402139: they're super tight.
16308402139: So the issue just to give the story, the background for those of you who are unfamiliar with this.
16308402139: There was a well known issue with the angular coefficients in the rest of the code at nll.
16308402139: There was no issue with matching to nll, which is the precision that CDs us, so what CDs use his exact next deleting order.
16308402139: And this issue doesn't arise until you go to next to next meeting or so there should be no concerns about if they got their angular coefficients rice is that we formally correct order they calculate.
16308402139: The original residents code included these no locate corrections to the total rate, but the didn't include the correct angular fences all the angular functions, with the exception of.
16308402139: The eighth the eighth floor coefficient and the leading coefficient integrate exactly to zero, when you integrate over all of cosine and data and all the five.
16308402139: This is an issue, not with the recent nation calculation, but with how we actually matched to the fixed order in the fixed order calculation that we use, and that these are that these differences in these effects, tend to be at larger PT and not it smaller.
16308402139: And if there's some preliminary results using empty FM which actually has the full calculation, instead of just the total costs, the total rate calculations are have been completed, so you can see some preliminary results here, comparing the a zero prediction between the Atlas data.
16308402139: Sorry, I did this before the cms released their angular distribution so nothing personal it's the lyceum that's colleagues.
16308402139: You know, then you have the two, which is now an agreement so one of the things that was wrong is there's this relation called the lamppost relations which says that a zero should equal a two.
16308402139: And this is only true at next deleting order and next the next living or at uc T radiation actually breaks, this relationship.
16308402139: That was one of the big concerns, and you can see, we now have corrected it, and this is even further, supported by if you compare the difference between the two educators today.
16308402139: We have actually been spending some time on fixing these and so these have now been resolved, but again, the CDF experiment, only the envelope calculation, and so this issue is.
16308402139: not related to anything that they did in their choice.
16308402139: So, then, I just sort of want to wrap this up with the thing that everyone's been looking forward to some preliminary results for now that you guys know how that works of consistent luminary results on.
16308402139: Where we are at in sort of trying to understand the effects of some of these things that people are brought up.
16308402139: So these are all again preliminary results, I just want to make that super clear that i've had left that we've had less than a week to do this so we're trying to get these all done.
16308402139: The extraction, so I don't have any MW shift uncertainties or anything like that, because to actually get this you need to do with templates it, which is also generating 1000 or so templates of various different masses.
16308402139: And if we really want to do this correctly, we sort of have to use the same data driven approach that the CD that CDs of us to adjust.
16308402139: The theory calculations of the data using the Z PT before we can actually say anything about the wpc.
16308402139: To make sure that we are doing it correctly, and not just saying, these are the effects that we just take the most recent results version with the version they use this is the shift because they did it, they did this data driven corrections which needs to be approved.
16308402139: So here, you can just see the shift of if you change the wi fi at MTV sort of how it changes each of these.
16308402139: So all of these plots the following last one is going to be the transverse last of the w the Center plot is going to be the PC of the laptop and the far right is going to be the PT of the neutrino.
16308402139: We don't have detector smearing effects we don't have any of these resolution acceptance directions, so you may notice that the laptops etc, and the neutrino PC identical, because without those corrections in the theory calculation there, they are identical.
16308402139: And just keep in mind what the shape looks like and it will become clear why you can't just look at the shapes and sort of say what the mass ship is going to be so, I just want to point out like even mind what these shapes look like.
16308402139: So we go to the scale dependent, so we just sort of very some of the sales and the rest of the calculations and we see sort of how the observable change, you can see sort of hear how those change for.
16308402139: This is just one of the skills that we change, which is the scale in the heart cleaner coefficients So if you change that by a factor of two up and down sort of how does it vary your prediction again, you know compare the shapes here to the shapes here so it's not very clear.
16308402139: What your what your mash it would be without doing the Chi square that actually doing all the templates it and.
16308402139: Moving on, people have talked about the PDF uncertainty, you know very impressive that PDF got it down to four maybe.
16308402139: Some of you will have been questioning that, so we are you know just cross checking this as well.
16308402139: Here you can sort of see the uncertainty from the PDF again you sort of have to do you have to take basically if you're doing a healthy approach, you have to take each of the eigenvectors.
16308402139: calculate what the math of that eigenvector would be in the plus and minus direction and then use the master formula to extract.
16308402139: The w mass for items that are for the total uncertainty so it's not you can just look at these sauces they oh yeah uncertainty is X MTV of, but we are in the process of working on that in terms of all of these.
16308402139: are not all these terms of all of these uncertainties that you will have.
16308402139: The next one, and the one that people have been really questioning the questioning on is what happens if you go to higher order correction so here again, you can see the effects of the hierarchy directions there's a lot of colors here the to line is the calculation that.
16308402139: That CDF use the red line is the current state of the art within the rest of those codes, the.
16308402139: The blue line is, if you basically don't correct those angular coefficients you just use that K factor.
16308402139: That corrects the total cross section, but you don't correct the angular coefficient sort of the size that it would have so that's basically the blue to the blue to the readings of correcting as angular coefficient.
16308402139: And then the.
16308402139: Green is basically if you were to just correct their total cross section to the next, the next meeting order cross section and, since this is normalized sort of dropped out and the yellow is basically doing the same thing, but getting the angular coefficients.
16308402139: So you can see there's some big shifts here, but again, this one is actually the one that is most sensitive to this data driven approach and so.
16308402139: While this while this might look like there's some significance here it's unclear whether using these data driven techniques can actually use this coming, we are now in the process of understanding exactly what he did to.
16308402139: Get the resolution code to agree with the PTC so we can actually mimic it ourselves and emulate it to sort of tell you what, including the higher order effects.
16308402139: So that sort of brings me to my conclusions and just to sort of summarize what we've been discussing and where we're going with this, so the CDS CDs run through now has the most precise MW measurements there's a tension between CDF run to and the standard model of seven Sigma.
16308402139: One of the things that people have really pinpointed as a possible scores of major uncertainty is the red zone code.
16308402139: So there's been lots of lots of questions that i've been asked about the rest with code, we are in the process now of looking into all these questions that you have brought up about.
16308402139: How we do things in our code to sort of understand whether it's on the theory calculation that is causing the shift just to sort of cross check and validate.
16308402139: And we still in some preliminary results for that in the future we want to emulate this data driven techniques to really try to be as precise in our final statements of.
16308402139: What these effects have, in the final results, so we want to make sure that we do everything exactly the way CDF did it so that we don't say something that is wrong by saying you know we do these shifts.
16308402139: And then we compare them without doing the data driven approach and we end up with a much, much larger shift and people are like Oh, this is the answer we gotta be careful about that.
16308402139: And yeah so and then the last way, I just want to talk about we're we're planning or i'm planning on looking into sort of how flavor dependence can actually affect us on Twitter rid of functions and talking with people about.
16308402139: Different choices and non-paternity functional forum to see how much of this shift of actually is, because this is something that people have brought up, so thank you all for having me here again, and if you have any questions, let me know.
16308402139: So, first we have some raise hands here.
16308402139: I start with one question.
16308402139: Can you go back to one of your blog compared maybe the previous one sounds great so I know you're saying all these caveats you can't use this.
16308402139: To actually you know real science, but i'm just trying to understand how these plots work, so if this was there was no detector effects or anything and i'm supposed to be comparing the light blue to the red which way would shift adobe.
16308402139: But that's a good question.
16308402139: Am I supposed to have a result we compare compare the look at the far right spot in here that for life.
16308402139: And you tell me what.
16308402139: Good so I wasn't supposed to read it from we're in the process of doing this there's a lot of you really have to go through with these templates that really do like this detailed calculations.
16308402139: So the question is were what were the masses, so the red one is at 3.5 and then the glue is up 10 MTV and the Green one is down.
16308402139: But the federal value doesn't matter just up and down.
16308402139: One of the question remotely.
Josh Bendavid: So, can you can you go to the slide where you were discussing the matching of the angular coefficients to the fix.
Josh Bendavid: The one where you were describing some of the caveats yeah so what I was trying to understand here my understanding of the of the older Resto swatting code was that.
Josh Bendavid: For the for the angular pieces that don't get resolved that effectively Sigma ul was being re scaled by the estimation factor, but the the you know Sigma 123.
Josh Bendavid: was not such that the angular coefficient would actually not be consistent with the yellow one, in that case because you're changing the denominator but not the numerator is that Is that correct or was my understanding of that girl.
16308402139: that's correct and this one comes into I mean it's.
16308402139: it's complicated.
16308402139: You know, as we've had discussions.
16308402139: I think there is a slight shift I don't recall off the top of my head the size of that shift from this effect in the region that they use, which has to be less than 15.
16308402139: because all of the angular coefficients go to zero.
16308402139: Except for a four and.
16308402139: And the leading coefficient and so it's another unclear how much the.
16308402139: difference in the ratio plays a role in this.
Josh Bendavid: Okay.
Josh Bendavid: It would be correct.
Josh Bendavid: Right okay thanks, but but it, but it would be correct to say that the angular functions are exact to that order, but not necessarily the angular coefficients.
16308402139: yeah so so the.
16308402139: So there's a question on how.
16308402139: How do you read some of these coefficients correctly because you've coefficients do not have the QC diversion terms they don't have the long term.
16308402139: And so the question is, do they follow the same reason nation, as all the other coalition's they not get resolved at all, or do they have some other.
16308402139: Reformation that in you know some power correction or things like this is something that people are slowly starting to look into more detail but.
16308402139: In principle, there's no clear way, which is the correct way of doing.
Josh Bendavid: Okay, but does that difference correspond to any of the pairs of lines that you have on slide 23.
16308402139: The.
16308402139: old way of doing it, and the new way of doing it is the difference between basically the Teal and the yellow and the blue and the red.
Josh Bendavid: Okay, thank thank Thank you that's useful and then can can you remind exactly what is the difference between the Teal and the blue, for example.
16308402139: The the seal is the calculation that PDF.
16308402139: And the red is the most.
16308402139: And the blue is okay so.
16308402139: So without the angular coefficient.
Josh Bendavid: Okay, so that, so the big differences from nll to and anello.
16308402139: As well and and.
16308402139: Lol.
Josh Bendavid: OK OK.
Josh Bendavid: OK thanks got it.
16308402139: This is just to clarify how to read these thoughts so here, as opposed to a few slides ago where you get showed up the plot.
16308402139: With three different methods here you fix the mess, to the central value Is that correct yes that's correct, and so the Teal which I can barely see but it's there sorry I know you're colorblind I didn't choose the colors Thank you.
16308402139: yeah at some point I wanted to have three point to read, but I found I found the red.
16308402139: The red one by definition yeah so so character, I just stare at the plot on the right here yep and say, well, the Red is the correct answer according the correct answers and the Teal is what PDF.
16308402139: So up at high math at a high empty.
16308402139: VP of this is the pts industry now, this is.
16308402139: This is empty.
16308402139: Okay, so up at high empty.
16308402139: There is less red than there is to so that would push the peak a little bit.
16308402139: Further down so that pushes the math don't know what am I doing wrong but, but you but that's assuming that the data driven approach taken by CDF to tune the to curve to reproduce the teachings the data does not affect this plot at all.
Chip Brock: Could you expand a plot this view, so we can see the login it's it's.
16308402139: The far left.
16308402139: Will post the slides just after this.
16308402139: next person ever knows him haha.
Tim Hobbs: yeah thanks Josh for this talk is really clear, I was wondering if you could say a little bit more about the flavor dependence.
Tim Hobbs: In the recent calculation that you mentioned a few times you showed this calculation that had a shift, I think, as large as you mentioned 10 and 1010 MTV for one specific PT spectra.
Tim Hobbs: Do you have any do you have any comments or suspicion, I mean if this word actually be done in a full grandes template do you have any estimate for what the impact of actually really tracing the flavor dependence through the full MW extraction what what this would really look like.
An.
16308402139: order of magnitude, but I don't think it's going to be anything larger than 10 MTV but don't quote me on that fun.
16308402139: you because you can see that the the year in this role where they get the nine, which is where they you know, this is, I was.
16308402139: quoting the conclusions of the papers it basically point to this nine as at 10 MTV shift, and you can see that it says the other one was unclear how this when you do the global wtf is how.
16308402139: I don't lie.
Tim Hobbs: Right right and a very closely related question which might be more of the same but me for for P P bar all of the Tibet RON do you have any do you have any sense before doing the calculation, you know how that might go or.
Tim Hobbs: or no.
16308402139: No yeah yeah.
Tim Hobbs: yeah yeah okay thanks very much.
16308402139: hi.
16308402139: To make a comment, based on all of the discussions about how these plots are trying to predict how these plus move in w and we have to remember that.
16308402139: In experiment, I mean they did do a fit over a wide range of these variables and got a very good cut squared which means.
16308402139: That you know when you look at these plots and you see that they all move in different ways there's so much orthogonal right they're not doing the same shift has to end.
16308402139: In the fact that you have any events entity, you can strain those parameters in a different way than you constrain them w partially I mean right they are correlated so much fact that they're you know different that you know, the fact that we got a good time squared so now.
16308402139: Is experimentalists the fact that he got a good case squared inset to some extent the tune that they did must have for 12.
16308402139: Sorry you're saying that's Okay, they.
16308402139: Their their data fit one of these templates well.
16308402139: that's great but Josh here has a better calculations right but that's.
16308402139: So, so if.
16308402139: i'm not sure i'm seeing what you're saying so so that's that's this this cannot be right, because it does not PDF data that is.
16308402139: just saying that the knobs that you have to turn in these spots.
16308402139: Change the data in ways that aren't exactly the same.
16308402139: itself can draw them w without having to rely entirely on where they end up.
16308402139: As that that's all i'm saying is that we have the ability.
16308402139: As ability to constrain it somewhat independently.
16308402139: You know the fact that these looks hard for winter, I guess, reasonable changes.
16308402139: as urgent as different ways.
16308402139: there's a look there's actually.
16308402139: A good thing nine versus negative and you brought up that it changes one in the anti correlated way for another that's Another good thing.
16308402139: Okay, so let's go back to remote Xuan Chen.
16308402139: your knees yeah.
Xuan Chen: Thanks hi Josh this is Xuan from katie and thanks for the Nice talk so I have a question for slides 21 when you discuss the scale veneration.
Xuan Chen: yeah so here.
Xuan Chen: And just correct me if i'm wrong, so the scale version here is better than 1% level, but I think typically for an access leading order plus.
Xuan Chen: In Cuba i'll be summation the scale variation is typically five to 10% and you if you do the the normalized I say PTT to eat up your ratio scale dependencies early much smaller but still at.
Xuan Chen: 123 percent level So could you comment on how is less than 1% and certainly we believe this is next class next next weekend look much smaller than the.
Xuan Chen: Typical kind of uncertainty, you really get.
16308402139: clear that this is only changing one of the scales for this is basically changing on what we're doing now to the factorization scale we thought to change the recent nation scale and have a normalization.
Xuan Chen: Right so.
16308402139: I feel very we.
16308402139: would all have to be fast.
Xuan Chen: yeah so you have a really nice flop study I sink slides 20 where you're compared to slightly change of the mass to the PDF.
Xuan Chen: To the empty and via this one, so if we look at, for example, i'm T here to just changing the mass by 10 MTV right the prediction around the peak or it's a bit beyond the threshold, but the difference can be as large as 2%.
Xuan Chen: So the division for city of result compared to the electronic feet it's about 60 MTV so we could expect are quite strong.
Xuan Chen: Like obvious pick difference for the shape of the distribution and the but still, this is still like 2% maybe 5% we seen the euro kind of.
Xuan Chen: theoretical theoretical uncertainty time to really make a precise sheet to let's say up to us heretical for the quoted over or uncertainty of the w Ms to be in I mean we basically have to I found this is kind of.
Xuan Chen: too good to be true yeah just my personal opinion, but I didn't do the free to so just my kind of a logic here.
16308402139: It goes back to the discussion we were having earlier that while the overall is you know of the order of.
16308402139: 2.2% or 2% for the piece here, you have to remember that you have all the other bands, that you have to fit and so this helps constrained things less than that.
16308402139: But it's just the fact that you have a ton of been that you can use to help you this helps to reduce the naive estimate of your own.
Xuan Chen: yeah so the details of the template fittings really important I hope.
Xuan Chen: I didn't want to do this.
16308402139: yeah that's exactly why we didn't want to give any numbers because we haven't had time to do all that.
Xuan Chen: sex.
16308402139: party ratios in the loop if.
They were.
16308402139: To do a.
16308402139: Going back next comment about like just seeing that.
16308402139: knobs changes peace and non degenerate ways so whether or not they're really that non degenerate will become clear, by looking at like.
16308402139: How many signals each of those bins are obese fine The thing is that you can't really define a standard deviation of these parameters in a reasonable way, because this is a BMW as an input parameters so what's your uncertainty on the input parameter that you're measuring in terms of.
16308402139: Things, and these are all theory has a son so they're all we can all do the that infinite statistical precision, no, I mean you have the expected.
16308402139: You had the expected counts for each been.
16308402139: right but i'm saying the expected counts is this is one over Sigma Sigma not whatever.
16308402139: it's not number of events.
16308402139: We have theories predictions.
16308402139: And the specifics of the Monte Carlo is the limiting factors like could just generate more events and now my standard deviation gets smaller and now the spot blows up more so I really meaningful misunderstanding.
16308402139: I don't have that I don't have that number.
16308402139: Is that per se talking about is what we can use stuff repeating that.
16308402139: yeah let's do another remote Daniel.
16308402139: Thank you, yes.
Daniel Froidevaux: Yes, thank you for the stork and, above all, thanks for you and your collaborators participating in the.
Daniel Froidevaux: sort of big effort of trying to benchmark with summation, which is a key tool in understanding or what you described, and I hope you will.
Daniel Froidevaux: complete this until we can publish this hopefully this year and, as you know, i'm dismayed.
Daniel Froidevaux: by the fact that CDF has used an obsolete version of response for publish such an important result and.
Daniel Froidevaux: i'm also a bit dismayed that they assigned zero uncertainty to the angular coefficients which has nothing to do with you so i'm going to ask you the question which I was hoping to see in your slides, which is which you have shown to some extent in the working group.
Daniel Froidevaux: meetings so taking response to the best version of response we have today what is, first, the total uncertainty you expect on predicting the recent spectrum at the best accuracy, you have which you described.
Daniel Froidevaux: and, more importantly, even and this accounts for whatever one calls data driven techniques right, what is the expected uncertainty.
Daniel Froidevaux: you expect on the ratio of w to Z and what are the assumptions behind this, as you know, it's not at all obvious that one can correlate.
Daniel Froidevaux: and physical scale variations between different processes, so my question is really today with response to.
Daniel Froidevaux: What would you expect us uncertainties on the spectrum, not as shifts in the ws because this discussion before about a peek here is completely irrelevant, since, as was mentioned in the chat the.
Daniel Froidevaux: The you have to take into account the experimental effects which wash out this entity completely so there's no point in discussing this products quantitatively right and you weren't about this, Sir i'm not criticizing me.
16308402139: Work on getting them and getting them back.
Daniel Froidevaux: it's really important to write, because if I read the paper there's very little information it's a short paper, even the supplementary material has little additional quantitative information so.
Daniel Froidevaux: I see a total uncertainty or 1.6 MTV if I remember correctly assigned to extrapolating the PTC so i'd say the basically the ctf data on the Z.
Daniel Froidevaux: To the PT w where you have to use the theory and I suspect it doesn't contain any flavor.
Daniel Froidevaux: component it doesn't contain any non preservative effects, so this number is really, really hard to believe, for me, since given what I know of today's uncertainties on computing before recent spectrum at the best accuracy when has today.
16308402139: I.
16308402139: haven't looked into that yet.
16308402139: You should look into that so we'll look into it.
16308402139: And for the choices that the CDF collaboration made, I had no say in any of this they basically set this 10 years ago, long before I even.
16308402139: got my PhD and started working on this project so that was their choices when.
Daniel Froidevaux: I know Josh i'm asking you about the uncertainty.
Daniel Froidevaux: i'm asking you about the uncertainties in your calculation, whether it was true because this gives me some insight on what I might expect, in the end to be the uncertainty.
Daniel Froidevaux: Which one should assign to such remember mentioned.
16308402139: That I don't have the numbers off the top of my head, but calculate them and get them back to figure out how we want to do.
16308402139: they'll uncertainties and all of this correctly in.
Daniel Froidevaux: Thank you, thank you.
16308402139: Thank you very much let's go to the next remote person CP.
C.-P. Yuan: yeah okay good Thank you right so.
C.-P. Yuan: Josh could you wind up the slide 23 again relate to these all these questions, been asked about the occasion.
C.-P. Yuan: Different conclusion, yes, so um let me a big a few comment about just add to what the Josh was saying.
C.-P. Yuan: Now, look at this price and the question is what's the major difference in all these different curve and now what again related to the question.
C.-P. Yuan: Daniel just asking and you've you've looked at all these different color code and you see that they have a date, like the one call.
C.-P. Yuan: The w 321 plus way, maybe Josh could you brought that up and then we can take say the middle of your kale either part yeah and then, then the the w 321 plus y and the price way that's precisely what the CDS for us and that's the the.
C.-P. Yuan: And Lol plus and now Okay, now the response to is the one that label as brad one that's a w 432 pathway K.
C.-P. Yuan: Right, so that that's again based on the what the Joshua's explaining it's a different order in the creation of the dnc thing by their location.
C.-P. Yuan: So the, the response is to describe their red one now, if you look at all these a fight fight different color you see that that there's a group right that look at the middle middle class, the middle part of that the left wing TT.
C.-P. Yuan: The two groups one group is that the the red and blue right another group that's three of those So you see one group correspond to w 432 limited red and blue the other group correspond to w 321.
C.-P. Yuan: Okay, not w 432 and 321 refer to the part that is the Josh described that ABC that that part to do with the summation right.
C.-P. Yuan: Now the why and why K, those are the fifth older part of it, and again when we, as I was saying that in this calculation all these different.
C.-P. Yuan: Different the curve there has a different treatment of this angular a function being put in there now, if you look at these these.
C.-P. Yuan: two groups there you see the largest difference is is due to that these are the recent mission public education, whether that's done at the.
C.-P. Yuan: At the poor three 2 million, the three l plus and then now that's what that means the response to okay so for three to refer to that you've seen the end three ll process and and now.
C.-P. Yuan: Now the w 321 the one that correspond to is the end then they'll pass you know and really is that the major difference compound the way you are.
C.-P. Yuan: How old is the summation public equation okay that's, the first thing the second statement is.
C.-P. Yuan: And the chant they did the candle change the kind of difference, you see in these awesome we also apply to the boss.
C.-P. Yuan: is pretty much similar kinds of sites, as you might expect, so that's that's the reason why that once you use the icd muppets legacy data once you use the data to talk to.
C.-P. Yuan: let's say to to to to fix these, the creation of race pass, then it would be this candle the difference that appear that appeal you hear about these w 432 and the abuse which one will be will be reduced right.
C.-P. Yuan: And I were to say that it's fine you think of that well i'm taking these pdfs the data, whether I.
C.-P. Yuan: use that data to determine this let's say the tool that there is none other function in the PR and y prime nutrition.
C.-P. Yuan: And I use the pod data to fix that g to that depend on which all the application, I do because the submission calculation that data in need to have these.
C.-P. Yuan: Paternity back to the park go along with his number two if I include this in three ll and plus in okay Christian.
C.-P. Yuan: Then, then in my email response that I am going to have a different kind of number of the power to compensate that you want to describe the same PVC days.
C.-P. Yuan: And that compensation what definitely reduce the candle the apparent, the difference, you see, on the screen here regarding this to a group of a put your shoes okay so that's a very important point I want to add a today what what Josh was was trying to explain over here.
C.-P. Yuan: All right, that's all.
16308402139: We have.
16308402139: Okay, we have two more Luca.
Luca Rottoli: Yes.
Luca Rottoli: Yes, sir.
Luca Rottoli: Thanks a lot for the.
Luca Rottoli: To make my question was especially address bye bye bye CP actually, but I just wanted to understand a little bit more the interplay of the reservation accuracy and the impact of the number robotic component.
Luca Rottoli: So I mean, namely whether you you kept it, I mean what we observed at least when US compared with atlas data instead by by going higher in the reservation or other than the.
Luca Rottoli: We are able to describe better the data lower lower values of beauty being that the the non productive component seems to be.
Luca Rottoli: An eating higher order missing or the correction at least a relatively I mean say around the peak then below it definitely makes our and effect so just wanted to ask whether hear you you kept fixed the denominator, with the part or whether ban when going up in order you also.
Luca Rottoli: Change the coefficients of the number two, but if component which will will definitely have an impact, when when moving from next next building log to Cuba land, for instance, thank you.
16308402139: So so that's a great question So here we left the all these terms of the same non preservatives function just the thought of the couple of these two that's a good point that.
16308402139: When you actually go to higher orders you in principle should reset the non preservative function, just like you would have the PDF so yeah that's something we should look into this is also part of the whole data driven approach rather changing the number derivative function and then.
16308402139: You get the data, so we have to sort of look at this in fact so that's it that's a great point.
16308402139: Okay, we have one more remote and then we'll ask for any questions here and speaker questions from Josh Bendavid.
16308402139: yeah.
Josh Bendavid: Yes, thanks so so coming back to this discussion of the angular coefficients as they enter into these blocks.
Josh Bendavid: So, if I understood is these additional explanation, then, then, as he said, there are these two groups of curves where the big difference is due to a different inclusive btw spectrum.
Josh Bendavid: And so, one might imagine indeed that by refitting or returning to the cpt you would take this out.
Josh Bendavid: But the difference between the blue and the red, for example, is if I got it right entirely do the differences in the angular coefficients and entirely due to the differences in it's effectively a 012 and three.
Josh Bendavid: And those by construction cannot be removed by tuning to the inclusive PT distribution now there's a small interplay with the traditional cuts, when you go and returned to the Z.
Josh Bendavid: But I think this business of the angular coefficients the differences in the recent nation treatment is pretty concerning because I think this is exactly the.
Josh Bendavid: thing which you would not expect to be able to tune out from the inclusive cpt and yet it's still has a pretty important impact on the left, under the leptin PT block let's say is the one which is least the least affected by the lack of experimental spirit so let's look at that one.
16308402139: thing that the fact that the.
16308402139: autism Center.
16308402139: And the writer differ by this amount.
16308402139: I don't know how much this plays a role, then in like a sub percent so I don't know how much does that translate into a math and certainty.
16308402139: or to the math of certainty that CDs.
16308402139: Yes, well is.
16308402139: That you do this correctly I don't know how much.
16308402139: That is larger or smaller than the uncertainty.
Josh Bendavid: I don't know either, but I I don't know either, but it doesn't look like it's zero.
16308402139: yeah that's one thing that we can look into it, I don't know the size and we'll look into it and we have a number will let you know.
16308402139: I think remote questions anybody in person, have any last minute questions they would like to ask, before we wrap up.
16308402139: Okay, then I think we'll wrap up thanks to speaker, please.
16308402139: And anybody physically, here we have snacks outside please grab them on your way out Thank you so much for coming.
16308402139: have another physics forum in two weeks guys.
Thomas Müller: Can we have a copy of the transparencies.
16308402139: Sorry, I just I was trying to get them done in time and didn't have it in time.