[CMS 28/S-029] 09:40:35 standardization, bodies like reference, wise. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:40:42 Well, that's also what here, this this this this Oh, we're now in this what I call the E science global engagement, developing policies and best practices, benefits in community. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:40:54 At large, and we do this always by means of doing it in existing forms. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:40:58 So I don't want to keep stuff into the porting structure, but always do with us contributions to stuff like wise stream from Igtf prefix Park as etc. Why are we doing this? [CMS 28/S-029] 09:41:12 Well. And of course we want to have. Since we're in a February board. We want to have interoperability between systems, and we want to have a good sense of security within the systems enhance Together one fuzzy feeling called trust [CMS 28/S-029] 09:41:32 Well, here's the specific forums, and we see ankle as a hopefully as a enable concentrate to yeah, lovely. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:41:49 Even touch them. I was even touched. Will be used as ankle. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:41:57 At least, I I hope we can contribute this linking PIN. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:42:02 one of the main communities were part of this spark, which was the authentication authorization. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:42:11 For research and collaboration It was a projected our community, and which we want to bring in policies brought up by stuff. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:42:20 We work on via the universe for us, into standardize guidelines, like the document we worked on yesterday. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:42:31 Of course there's still the arc loop into architecture, that's which we try to keep up with the Polish development. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:42:37 Good developer, and of course, the lovely view that Hannah made, which one, I think, is a highlight of the 4 years. Software. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:42:47 I think you I mean to me whole thing was really useful, useful. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:42:52 one of the also important things is that we support Agus the Ark Engagement group for infrastructures, bringing together the global representatives from AI operators in the research infrastructure for success for those guys that are produced by the diverse forests which we put in our to to to check [CMS 28/S-029] 09:43:12 them for a adoption, and see if it makes sense. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:43:17 What we have written down, I think yesterday was also a good experience on what was Buddhist, but still could use some feedback for a second iteration. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:43:30 As always, the the proof the pudding is in. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:43:32 That's also the case for these guys of documents. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:43:38 One other aspect we're part of is methods. The education recent education fedops group. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:43:45 What we did there is especially Euler working on reference assurance framework in order to get a good signal. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:43:52 On what assurance is we have currently within breaths the assurance framework. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:43:57 What should say the referenceation suite? It's in total sweet. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:44:03 Yeah. With being one hand, ref for signaling the the factors of the identity and the single factor and multi-factor authentication profile for signaling the strength of the authentication And this is of course. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:44:21 Done. That means that idps artist's body, but it's good to know to what extent they did. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:44:28 The fetting. That's the signaling, and how they do stuff. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:44:33 So make it more visible approach for relying parties to assess the risk, the assurance they have on the user. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:44:46 We did, I think, which was also a good master for us, was having the full paper published on identity shoes for federated infrastructures that you have wrote with us. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:44:58 another thing is that we contributed to certifying in over those 4 years V. 2 got to develop, and V. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:45:05 2 got approved doing summer. So that's also a very nice things that we at least I mean it's it's of course, the working group, but we contributed hopefully in a positive way, to this eff efforts we also consider it to the education, security Internet handbook I think, that was also very [CMS 28/S-029] 09:45:24 useful exercise. Another part you might, since you're in this call, you might be aware of what the Gtf. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:45:31 Is, so I'm not going to talk more about that as you were here yesterday. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:45:36 Probably you also might want to know what a a guideline is which got to talk to Die Vegas, and which we have a very fruitful session on this day. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:45:48 So not much to talk about that anymore. West community. We'll definitely look at that, Kelsey. We have Sei. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:45:58 We worked on the Asia Trust framework, when it's got to finalize that we have the self-assessment tool, And that's I think, for now. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:46:06 done until we get back on within twice A Ci is also the policy development kit Amongst others, we did the service operation Security, which is published now. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:46:22 It is okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, So we should Charlie: cause I've run out of time. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:46:42 But probably in recent weeks, and and we were historically meeting on the Monday [CMS 28/S-029] 09:46:51 we may need to choose a different I can come back and say a little bit more about ways. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:46:59 Yeah, definitely, definitely, please. And to use contributions by ankle was also on the security communication challenges. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:47:08 Coordination Working Group Jones Working group, and of course, phone phone for our within twofront. We did kickstart a virtual workshop last year on insurance, and this year, we restarted also the work on having them. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:47:25 Fit for our actual infrared workshop in the Us. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:47:29 To get delta from people post pandemic to the V. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:47:33 2, but as well as obviously some stuff of assurance looking forward to that one. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:47:41 So that's announced. That's the things we contribute to. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:47:46 Since last meeting we had some outreach finally in person again. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:47:52 We had a ankle presentation by handing me on the Tsc. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:47:56 I didn't like me talk on assurance that the don't have conference last month. Of course, you also come to present Echo as the I wasn't talking about lighting [CMS 28/S-029] 09:48:11 Oh, Oh, good. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:48:22 Well. Besides besides my typo, it's happened. Yeah. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:48:27 Seems to be overseas. Yeah, thank you. I mean, this was really nice, I'm not like 50 participants in, and for but I only have 5 min, but at least it was like 250. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:48:43 People and so it was really. Yes, sir, I'm I'm still pulling on this, and now trying to do the the 5 min talk I had. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:48:50 I had read it out, and I'm trying to make a blog post out of it to vibrate it. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:48:55 I'm not sure where, but publish it. Yeah, that would be nice, particularly to mark the end of the GM. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:49:04 For activities, because there's a lot of things that we [CMS 28/S-029] 09:49:11 Blog post on on home. Online. But this this is good also to I mean, we're already funded for G 5, one. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:49:20 But it's also always good if somebody shows up on G on 5, 2. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:49:24 This is not recorded. Right? It's a good I mean. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:49:29 I meant to secure funding or to to show I mean induction just to be shaky black to write these days. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:49:33 I'm not. Yeah, Well, that does not eliterate better in English. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:49:37 But you need to answer the question What does Enko done for us? Yeah, it's actually quite a lot. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:49:45 So this is a good story. Gasoline. Let's see if I find some time to that grant, out which is that we have a ankle presentation of, the Thank God, there's no lightning talks anymore. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:49:58 at the end of the Social Security summit. We're organizing that thing for our you know, will talk about the shorts at it. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:50:05 Techx and many relevant topics for us at the acup [CMS 28/S-029] 09:50:13 What these are, the mentioned relevant meetings. I think if I did not screw off the dates, this should be. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:50:20 It. I wasn't sure if it's ever for back in before. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:50:27 So let's go Sunday yeah, yeah, So the for our meeting is on a Sunday. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:50:33 It's really actually before the whole week starts, and then reference on Monday, and then Texas 6 is the Tuesday and Wednesday for the the sorry it is on my trust and identity Agenda. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:50:45 Page. Oh, is it that? Okay? Doesn't actually mention it on the top level page, saying, we already have, I think, a dozen people who registered so on that stood what nice [CMS 28/S-029] 09:51:07 Given the drama someday, I mean, I would expect to drop in having people drop in during the day as well up to the well if you're in the end of the week, it's most of the time. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:51:19 The other way around. So Abu Dhaka: Yeah, I guess reference starts first thing on Monday morning. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:51:28 So people are attending Reference We'll appear on some That's the reason I'm not sure how much of the people who are registered will show up at 10 Am. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:51:42 But [CMS 28/S-029] 09:51:46 So we got in gem 5, 1, 2 year project starting generally first, and I think well, which is up to us of course, to do what we want, because we have basically the the same mission goal destination on what we have on this 4 years? [CMS 28/S-029] 09:52:10 So it's basically up to to come up with a sensible I would say. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:52:24 As for both new topics will be overly discussed, I think. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:52:28 Last, time was, Should we do something on policy for those stuff and based interpretable trustworks, as we does discuss yesterday the technical stuff. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:52:38 But how about the the policies we get And I think the Aaa also already, I think, has start of it. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:52:46 But but well, let's let's show up what happens, and and that's also I think it's also on how or the see Federal evolved or not underbarrassed procedures for these lists and all it's an igtf [CMS 28/S-029] 09:53:02 business thing, but Ankle, I'm sure, is interested [CMS 28/S-029] 09:53:36 We we we shouldn't find the actual both use case. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:53:38 sanctified revisit, which we also think discussed precisely, or how to handle proxies or middle things, as tomcat, And last Monday, when I was talking to him. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:53:50 but we'll discuss it also shortly. Yesterday, I think yeah, I would like to see that brought up to speed. That cause. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:53:57 Make sense if I can't be based on it based on sci version one. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:54:00 so we really ought to bring it up to date with the 2 and 35 version, 2 and everything that is able to be. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:54:07 And it's something I think we should be discussing the because we keep hearing from particularly in common. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:54:15 They say, Why should we trust these proxies Well, I like, I said. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:54:21 It may be that We do need to kind of impose something more formal with sanctify that they do get some trust markets as they sanctify compliance or something yeah, but but because in the past we said, Oh, No, No, No, it's not an entity. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:54:31 Category. It's not basically just make it It's just a white. Box, But there are people, and it would be interesting to explore with in common more white And I And I like I also mentioned my own experience is, that you have now the [CMS 28/S-029] 09:54:55 of the micromagnetic proxy in the my cliented proxy processed the end user services for the yeah services. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:55:02 So for student mobility within Europe People go for a year from the Netherlands to well, let's say, University of example, and they have to register nowadays all kinds of websites these websites are amongst on after one proxy, beyond [CMS 28/S-029] 09:55:25 proxy, which is my academically and what you see is that we have the release Of course, the standard attributes. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:55:32 Bush, looking to look at the fire, for logistical reasons for the background systems. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:55:39 but what you see is that people say I need to go to the online 11 agreements, which is one of those services. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:55:46 Why do I have to then connect to that? My academic id thing? [CMS 28/S-029] 09:55:51 What What is it? What does it? How am I sure that that thing handles only these attributes, and doesn't do any quote harm? [CMS 28/S-029] 09:56:02 And how do I know that no other services also? And via the formalist answer, Well, it's it's from legal perspective. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:56:09 It's a a, a, A. Yeah, So basically, it's it's you. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:56:18 You hand over the the attributes, and it's up to the other party how to handle it. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:56:22 And then they're wrong. Plans of clear privacy statements in place, because the proxy and the back the Sp. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:56:28 Is behind. But you see that at least also. And it's basically the same feeling I got from the incumbent people. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:56:36 They are hesitant, because do not directly well. The the user, control and and that control has to be either made clearly explicit by means of well, it's it's it's it's a data owner. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:56:54 Soap It's it's it's it's legal, and not your issue, your your problem. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:56:58 But still you, the the days of the so strong argument It's just not a strong argument. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:57:07 I mean that the doesn't convince people to do. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:57:11 I think, yeah, I mean the legally of the book. But still they they like a warm and fuzzy feeling Yes, exactly, because there is not a direct relation. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:57:20 I mean, You do have an end service. But that proxy in between, And can approximate, and also offer other services to my users. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:57:31 week. Some sort of go further down the road. The building. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:57:46 Trust me. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:57:46 Like by version 2 in Gn 5. We have to work out how to collaborate with Wcg. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:57:52 And 7 I mean, that could be. At least, I remember we made enormous progress at the arc meeting in essence, finishing second by version, one need to No, I mean, but that could be really a if if you publish it as a first month, and approximately I could say that at least for some decrease you [CMS 28/S-029] 09:58:11 could say like. At least I know that there are clear agreements between the proxy and The Sp. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:58:17 Is behind, and I'm not sure that it's the Oh! [CMS 28/S-029] 09:58:26 but in the [CMS 28/S-029] 09:58:31 Is that it? [CMS 28/S-029] 09:58:37 But anyway, that's that's, I think, but just like got feeling from from what we discussed last time on here, and the other thing. The third thing I was if we could put in chipping well, basically it's already. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:58:49 I mean, we we do. We lost mark, we lost odors. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:58:53 We are officially losing ever, but we do get Marcus also for 25% of his time. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:59:03 So How many times can you slice up, Marcus? [CMS 28/S-029] 09:59:07 Yeah, Well, that's that's another story. Probably Well, to to put it bluntly, probably. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:59:12 Now probably we'll be putting our markers for time that not for the notes, but probably another time you at least get paid for what he does for happens But he'll probably basically be on the technical side Yeah, So that's the reason why I propose. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:59:27 To put chipping Marcus on topics which are relevant for for modi app and stuff, and we also still have niche for some cycles. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:59:36 And I think that would also be equally useful to put on that side. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:59:41 But I think I need to discuss with Marcus and Misha and you what exactly would be useful? [CMS 28/S-029] 09:59:47 Where expansion also, mission has limited amounts, you know, I know, but that's that's it. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:59:52 To make sure that whatever time you put in paid dash on for 3 makes best impact. [CMS 28/S-029] 09:59:57 That's I mean the participation of certain whether or not certain is efficiently a member of the Gn. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:00:03 5, which I assume they're not Wlc. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:00:06 G. Of course, is still a key Stakeholder infrastructure. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:00:10 We do need to have, you know, collaboration with But that's the reason why I said I don't want to see this, and I would hate to see that no, no no no no, But that's exactly what I mean. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:00:22 By I always want to do stuff in the open and not within the project. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:00:27 See us as a a conservancy agency, or what is it? [CMS 28/S-029] 10:00:33 I can go Yeah, to do to the port. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:00:41 So in terms of other topics for Gn. 5 I mean, I think wise is A: Yeah. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:00:47 Oh, yeah, yeah, well, so this proposed new talk is what I still have is what proposed, continued topics. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:00:56 I know you've got some more and I've got some more. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:01:04 We can focus on you and continued topics is Pdka wise assurance certified, remote. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:01:12 I think policies on secure and federated locking, because I'm not entirely sure what now certifies them. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:01:18 If there is any debt to follow up, but at least the work now is on the guidance documentation that goes with but the guidance is still being tuneed and completed, and the same is also follow up on what we Do now with aos let's see I think for all [CMS 28/S-029] 10:01:37 completed his cocoa for multiple reasons. Well, Coca-cola is is done. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:01:45 And Michael is gone. Yeah. And then to discuss, I think, but that's that's also what we do with the we put in. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:01:56 Chipped in some some effort on the No. Exactly. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:02:04 So I I was wondering [CMS 28/S-029] 10:02:13 I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah, no one. And it's it's working. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:02:22 I think I mean I was already in it, with zoom for too heavily, and then it will little bit. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:02:30 Well, on the slope, probably of the Gapa cycle. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:02:35 It went from to top to the I think we're now getting a little bit into the face of, but in the end was it now finally submitted as a fixed version So did version one actually go help that was that was going to be my question because it didn't interest, as though It was getting close [CMS 28/S-029] 10:02:59 yeah, that's a little bit my my worry. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:03:02 So when the slope of dissolution, let's see if we can. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:03:09 so I mean, I'm I'm not unwilling to to look again into all these effective policies, but but it's more like [CMS 28/S-029] 10:03:17 See uninformed is that is a big technical issue. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:03:23 Behind that, for example, Now it's trying to optimize it. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:03:26 I I My feeling is it's too many developers, and too few deployers so to keep tweaking it make it even better and even better. It even better. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:03:35 And [CMS 28/S-029] 10:03:49 because the technique doesn't work, or they just [CMS 28/S-029] 10:03:57 This spectrum by now, I think. Why do you see Fat has grown all the bells and vessels that are common for a fully technical bridge, behind including off lengths, constraints, and name constraints of policies cross signing and bath construction Does it [CMS 28/S-029] 10:04:12 do. Everything is in it, and that can read yourine. Exactly. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:04:18 Then it's it's it's a grown system. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:04:22 Yeah, So if we can come up with the list of trusted issues first, Yeah, no, that's that's that's all we use counterpoint. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:04:33 The syntax from felt, where it makes sense or the subset that's useful. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:04:40 We go there, and that's ever our ABC. Felt actually matures. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:04:43 There should be a migration path is relatively simple because then you can start signing those Jason blocks right? [CMS 28/S-029] 10:04:51 And that would actually be the trivial of Odyssey felt implementation. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:04:56 Oh, yeah, that's also what I meant. Basically with the work on focus, or more than last issue. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:05:01 At least, I should have written here. But that's exactly what I had in mind like. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:05:03 If we can make sure that, at least the work doesn't diverge into 180 degrees, then I think we're already on a goods. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:05:12 Good track. That was my thoughts, that it's [CMS 28/S-029] 10:05:23 I've been running a metadata signing service for our Rc. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:05:26 Fat for past, free at all. Here, Yeah, for sure, We've Yeah, Yeah, you are, I know, and it has had exactly 0 users. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:05:37 I can bring the surface down, I can bring it up. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:05:40 Nobody ever complains or very, very stable, very successful, I mean, I mean as this, I mean, so far from from operator point of view, it's excellent. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:05:50 No users Roughly. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:05:55 I might look to do with it now. Seriously, I think I got one more slide. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:06:00 So this is at least for zoom for 3. I think I'll I'll final face to fresh meeting. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:06:06 so for now I would say, thank you for your participation Any of us will be there at Tech what's been going on and especially looking forward to just continue to work after generating first we have the same dual role also as we'll back asleep will marry now [CMS 28/S-029] 10:06:31 come back, more people little bit more back up to yeah itself. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:06:43 So no, as a this will end really The mariners back in January. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:06:49 Oh, really, okay. I hope she I hope she shows up in a new text. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:06:57 But let's see so Well, that was a little bit too much already. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:07:02 But this was my. You still have half an hour I could say a few things about wise and so the chip. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:07:12 Do you want to? I don't know no no. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:07:17 So what we could do was also in a moment No, I was just wanted to say, if if if I mean not just the one thing that we haven't, you haven't mentioned the way. I'm not sure whether it's Gn. 4 or GM 5 but we've got Istc coming up right [CMS 28/S-029] 10:07:39 in Oh, right, what do we end? Code? That's right. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:07:47 I did also papers, and the end of October. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:07:49 So are we gonna submit papers do something on the security workshop day. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:07:55 We just said, possibly for for our assurance and stuff purposes to do I think we should do something Yeah, So yeah, I I of course, presented ankle last year. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:08:10 Already, virtually yeah, I'm not sure if people are are in client, that I submitted again, because I think yeah, I think less. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:08:36 What's been What's here, Nko: You know. Gn: 4 has just well, the finished Yeah, do we want to write up as a paper? [CMS 28/S-029] 10:08:39 What They then go forward to. This will be an interesting one. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:08:42 we could. Actually, I mean, doesn't have to be very long. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:08:45 But we could actually document in a published paper. This is what we're teaching [CMS 28/S-029] 10:08:57 Because, apart from Euler's as short as paper, most of the tools we're gonna incorporate written anything [CMS 28/S-029] 10:09:11 That would be something interesting that could be written up in general. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:09:13 He knows as conclusion to whatever you reach. What do you think that is? [CMS 28/S-029] 10:09:20 That is, that, appropriate as it I could pick paper, and it's a It's a lot of pointers to lots of other things, but at least if I go into blah mode i'd say a holistic view of an able in science. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:09:39 Community Networking and Federation and he can even have a final paragraph on the summary in the future. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:09:45 What we're going to do to We'll have a year sectional related. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:09:53 which is better than many papers I've seen from Ioc, so I can see that that way would be a paperwork summarize what we did in June for that 3, and talk about Plans, for GM. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:10:09 5, and then we have the opportunity to write it up as a paper as well. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:10:14 Yeah, but but I mean, yeah, I mean, that's it. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:10:17 All the content we want to have is already there. I mean, it's just basically writing down what we have [CMS 28/S-029] 10:10:24 Don't, And then I hope they've done it. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:10:29 can put in the before she remote with it. I'm always more to the point, for that matter. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:10:35 Yeah. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:10:42 Yeah, I'm happy to. You could also imagine separate talks on like. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:10:47 35 version, 2 or one does not rule out the other, but that's not red. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:10:59 okay, there is Federation to point out so homogeneous. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:11:13 Oh, can I show [CMS 28/S-029] 10:11:18 We'll get a big boarding, but particularly if individuals are looking for reasons to get funding to build up to come world to share our travel budget. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:11:30 Oh, yeah, for sure they are, for sure. In the gym form, but it be transferred. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:11:39 at least, from what I know, from from my my, my, my, my [CMS 28/S-029] 10:11:53 That that could still be. I'm not sure. And how much we're still among friends here. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:12:05 when, if we use the [CMS 28/S-029] 10:12:07 When, if we use the the the Lab Channel agent, it can often get goods shows. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:12:11 I do? No, no, no, no, I think you're all I think from a full financial perspective. But I'm I'm I'm not really sure if your local accountant buys it. Yeah, yeah, no it. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:12:23 Can be done particularly, but I'm not a lawyer or a fiscalist, or the my cuttings is the red flag [CMS 28/S-029] 10:12:37 thank you for the bring up It's a fit for our meeting in December and type a buy, a fully flexible ticket. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:12:51 You see that [CMS 28/S-029] 10:12:52 You see the sun had lines. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:12:58 Great [CMS 28/S-029] 10:13:01 Yeah. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:13:10 hi, Okay? Well, I'll I'll see. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:13:13 I'll see what I can write down for now, and and make sure that I could probably reduce anyway, from last year, and like a full bike round of it that is really. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:13:29 Yeah, have you proved my son something I've always trouble with. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:13:36 since I've done work in this field, because I know everything we're doing is important, but I still struggle to tie it to something that makes it actually tangible. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:13:46 You know we did all this stuff, some of that, with way of working for years is not actually used. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:13:51 Anyways we know it's important. Other people. Oh, yes, that's important. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:13:55 But it's not is not tied to everything, and I think it would be really good if we could. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:14:00 Maybe take the time to do a presentation and a paper on, on why it matters, and maybe I think ages is a really good linking thing, says that we decided as a group we need to do this And now. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:14:13 It's it's not okay for me to go and run a Wlc. Take an issue in a rubbish way. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:14:18 I have to do it according to these policies, and to make it a little bit more concrete, because I that's just my personal view right because I find it all very theoretical. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:14:29 And I'm not sure I'm not sure the audience understands the impact. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:14:35 A lot of times that we present about it [CMS 28/S-029] 10:14:39 I'm very happy to be That would. That's okay. But also linking it to acres is actually good, because there you look for technical interoperability initially. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:14:49 And now you need to trust especially the infrastructure proxies for which we now have to add policy into make combining that with the list of trusted token issues except Okay, maybe going through this exercise of thinking, bye, why does this matter why do I actually have to do this maybe that also allows [CMS 28/S-029] 10:15:13 us to see that actually this thing, that we spend a lot of time with is not so important, or we spend a lot of time on it. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:15:19 How can we make it more important as well? Cause I just worry that all this good stuff and pleasures that he sat in the corner forever [CMS 28/S-029] 10:15:29 How many, the fact that we RAM the Lgbtq. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:15:42 and it's been trusted That's a perfect example of something that was tangible, and it was a technical All the federated identity stuff has kind of been used yeah, but since we use the registration the fact that before we started all [CMS 28/S-029] 10:15:57 this great stuff 20 years ago, every single computer center demanded to register all users themselves. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:16:04 Wlcg model? Was that the scientists were going to have to register at 170 sites, or and we just said, that doesn't work. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:16:13 We've got to outsource it to the virtual organizations, and and getting the common aup that that everybody uses, that I mean, it's not terribly tangible but the big difference is the businesses registers, once and then they don't have to register. Anywhere, else. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:16:30 So they get all access to all these resources. So sort of things like that. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:16:36 I think we've lost a lot of that. And cybersecurity, of course, right now is extremely. And so a lot of what we're doing with the security and trust is to try and address those threats [CMS 28/S-029] 10:16:52 But yeah, it's nice touch because I mean, I had a I I shared the plane with Alister on the way out, here. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:17:00 So what do you hear from I said, Well, we've got trust and identity meetings, are we? [CMS 28/S-029] 10:17:03 What and a lot of even the people who are involved don't really. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:17:09 Why are you having to meet [CMS 28/S-029] 10:17:14 So I fully agree with your idea of trying to type something concrete and and selling it in that way. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:17:20 So people know that [CMS 28/S-029] 10:17:31 But I'm just a a group P. That's at the [CMS 28/S-029] 10:17:42 Sounds more like that. I think there's also scaling issue. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:17:45 If you look at the Lcg. We've come to a point where essentially we have to trust about 5 entities, 4 experiments. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:17:53 And so that is a scale of trust. Where so you can either do it through complete intimidation, or you have kind of enough personal trust. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:18:06 The challenge comes when you try to scare it up to more communities, and there is A is by a bias I call common. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:18:13 Such logical element Let you go. If you got over about a 100 250 people, dumb bars number, you actually have to formalize some of those interactions Yeah, you scale beyond what your brain could typically manage in terms of bilateral personal trust that that's model is something that's hard to [CMS 28/S-029] 10:18:37 scale in itself. Newcastle that with policies look a affiliated talk out time at some point on why our assurance documents are so much shorter than the ones from kantara or [CMS 28/S-029] 10:18:57 We have essentially lost breadcrumbs or I'll say we don't need to grad homes since we have an implicit trust basis. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:19:05 Okay. So. But a trust basis goes away. If you go beyond 150 people entities, Daniel forbid. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:19:18 I don't think the trust list is something that could formalize it. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:19:21 You see it in different communities, where you can try to scale it up, even based on personal trust. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:19:27 But then you introduce procedures rendered like the Operational Security Trust groups who are some of them, are now bad. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:19:40 15 1,600 people, have been incidents on the trust list, or even though you met somebody who know somebody, and you trust them because you firm together on solving incidents. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:19:54 When one of those 1,500 people leaks information, it reflects badly on those who actually sponsored them into Jerusalem. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:20:07 And that's yeah, that's more common. If you go above that kind of sociological limit. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:20:14 Yeah, yeah, it gets too large [CMS 28/S-029] 10:20:20 Yeah, too large So I think if we scale up to more communities the most tangible thing is this trust list, plus the procedures that got you onto the trust list that those procedures are transparent public and reviewed also like in Wlcg: people that might of course we trust because we have [CMS 28/S-029] 10:20:48 this whole shared background of [CMS 28/S-029] 10:20:54 Yeah, the do not do not how. Yeah, that that exactly. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:21:01 That undefinable feeling of trust. Okay, thank you. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:21:06 really decreasing the number of credential providers as well. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:21:11 So of course, it feels different. The trust involved a good time to 4. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:21:19 Okay, So that's done 3 now. No, it's before [CMS 28/S-029] 10:21:33 Nice, but that works in the Usg. That will fail miserably in the you're being on the science plan. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:21:41 Yeah. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:21:45 Oh, at least you have at least 50 utteries. And those guys, hundreds and hundreds of providers [CMS 28/S-029] 10:22:00 No way that you cannot get local trust out of it. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:22:23 I hope to transcribe gold whatever you get out of the transcript but I can also be wrong. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:22:31 So please, anything regarding more regarding just 5 form. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:22:40 What I missed, or that we want to drop, continue, explore, I think it's also any faulting one, I mean, it's not that there's a host of Charles for Free, and I use of that show 5 1. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:22:52 But it's always nice to do, but it's always nice to reach out to more communities. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:23:00 Isn't that I mean, then, you know, we have a number that we've been engaged with, but there are more around [CMS 28/S-029] 10:23:09 but also yeah, it's cross everything. Are there any specific communities you're thinking of? [CMS 28/S-029] 10:23:19 But what we miss or no no one. Lots of communities represented at the Egi Conference right? [CMS 28/S-029] 10:23:30 Really does. Yeah, but participants in egos, there's all the participants in us [CMS 28/S-029] 10:23:40 We tried in several ways to deal through our da and things, trying to reach out to one kind of with limited success. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:23:54 I was thinking it's a good idea. But another point don't have to do this, or what it is. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:23:59 We're trying to ask of them or sell to them all. Yeah, I was wondering like what would be a good instance of Forum To to do, so that you're actually Ei of course, is at least a place where you can get lots of the communities of course, Well, of his reasons [CMS 28/S-029] 10:24:22 That's more practical than the Iosk symposia. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:24:25 Yeah, in the more fuzzy. But not Fuzzy And the post this way. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:24:35 for natural fair data objects. I still don't know what time it would be nice is for us to work out what it is that we want from such communities or What we want to try and sell to them or something and come up with a an easy message that We could try to get out of there But [CMS 28/S-029] 10:24:52 you know, you could just go out vaguely and say we'd like you to be involved in from our discussions things like that. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:24:58 They go. We just want the identity bandage, but to work we don't be involved with it. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:25:08 and this trust generally, more generally, not just the identity [CMS 28/S-029] 10:25:15 I mean, it's the one area, I would say over the last 20 years, where we've struggled the most to apply policies. You know that the the sites and the reason sentences and the you know resource providers and things like that they're kind of plugged into all of that and They [CMS 28/S-029] 10:25:30 see the requirement for these policies. But these communities and the community policy. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:25:35 And yeah, it. It works with some of the communities. I mean, it works very well with Wlcg. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:25:41 Because [CMS 28/S-029] 10:25:47 And it's work with the life, sciences and things like that. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:25:49 But I think also we do get some. I mean, we we do have to. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:25:58 The stuff like that which we take them at least into a part of something that's done on the rest night. That also has. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:26:08 But it's especially unknown. Are you still missing some sort ofious launch candidates [CMS 28/S-029] 10:26:14 Okay, yeah, I'm a little bit. Listen to the actual community. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:26:19 So that's that's my and also communities of that Eos future meeting Last week this is, and then thought will be not engaged with any of them. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:26:31 Did it already, mentoring Euro, H. B. C. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:26:35 Oh, that's another. Yeah, that's that's a good point [CMS 28/S-029] 10:26:45 No, you didn't mention it, but there's a couple of challenges that, first of all, it is a purely known web user. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:26:54 There is stuff that's actually working. I'm both where the people who are involved are actually also in ancestral market. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:27:05 Smart and an agent. Yeah, international dimension. Looking at Hpc: And it's the largest EU plus Member State investment for the next couple of years. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:27:22 The joint undertaking is usually 5 billion or so. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:27:27 Is it that big cousin Yeah, it's it's it's I mean, that's if we want to talk about impact [CMS 28/S-029] 10:27:51 no next thing is how to reach out to them, and with not message [CMS 28/S-029] 10:27:59 So Yeah, not just trying to engage better than the movie through Lcg: and Egi and things we find in very well engaged with all those sites right? But we're not [CMS 28/S-029] 10:28:16 A little, many of them. Our national enrichment. Now, Sheriff, is, and Loomi, with 2 Melbourne and frustrated. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:28:26 We have hobbies. Office building saloon. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, I would We have links in the various points you? Have. Marcus goes linked to many of the German. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:28:39 Activities, 2 [CMS 28/S-029] 10:28:46 From the community point of view. More and more. These communities are running their own services on on the solid infrastructure that this is. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:28:55 And you know in terms of the the weakest link. I think they may well often be because they're probably the ones who understand that the threat environment and the requirements less than others. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:29:05 In some cases in terms of you know, using a di identity management, appropriately using assurance appropriately There's a lot of stuff there. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:29:18 I just don't know how to how to engage with them and get it out There, I mean, is that a food for our problem, Is it? [CMS 28/S-029] 10:29:24 Is it an inco problem I feel for art traditionally, Actually, we could have put it out. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:29:31 Requirements. Yeah, the main Actually, having solutions for being better bits of him. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:29:39 For, I was saying, Let's get the research communities together and document [CMS 28/S-029] 10:29:58 Because we did the Commission to fund up also. But I think for me, it's also queue for ankle. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:30:01 If you want to get relevant stuff, it's it's very important to get the right stuff from film and feeling it to warrant work. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:30:07 I mean, you can do stuff, and then you get What an assess you otherwise might stand up with stuff that ends up in in the catching dust. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:30:16 And that's what I try to prevent, and I'm not saying that wouldn't do with it. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:30:20 But I mean I I; I mean, I'll make you want to do the relevant stuff. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:30:25 What What does impact? [CMS 28/S-029] 10:30:29 So that's also why we think for us such key for me. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:30:32 Yeah. And then we want to do the the drug stuff under the rest of right [CMS 28/S-029] 10:30:39 Well, something like that. Just read it by statement Yeah, that was, it's it's the correct one. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:30:50 Not sure if that got correct, called Radley die. I will love it to the artificial liar subscription. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:30:50 not sure. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:31:00 no, the drug stuff. Okay, Probably my rottenished that does it, anyway. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:31:17 It's in the notes. Let me think about. Let me think about it. I have to say that's let's have a let's follow up. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:31:24 Let's think about it, and let's follow up with them. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:31:28 But but in general the the things I have written down, both version 5. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:31:31 One? Does it make sense to you? I mean, if it's if there's anything rotten or really show, stop us or missing things, I mean, that was a nice moment. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:31:45 Before I put some stuff on it with you at a moment, in time of people. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:31:49 for the countenance, but it's always nice to to tell people what we are planning to Yeah, contribute to sales. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:31:58 Nothing. It sounds really nice, but if we should have that tangible link to Heyus also fought him what says acus is also part of shale 5, Yeah, a nice cross link. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:32:11 and of trust, less than transparency of procedures together to make to have anchor, have a actionable operational language. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:32:23 Yeah, sure. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:32:29 Actually good, that is [CMS 28/S-029] 10:32:36 I fully agree. I'm not entirely sure how we should do, but I fully agree [CMS 28/S-029] 10:32:46 The most trivial thing to do, Missus Oj. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:32:46 Just put up the list. See if it happens [CMS 28/S-029] 10:32:59 Yeah, yeah. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:33:05 First, of coffee, I would almost say but yeah, no, I I want to do one very practical thing. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:33:12 I I didn't plan. The next Vc. For us, since that was a little bit, 1 one a little bit in to limbo the last times due to holidays and stuff, like that. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:33:23 Good idea. Yes, so I'd rather do it, since I have your attention [CMS 28/S-029] 10:33:34 So it's [CMS 28/S-029] 10:33:45 's. Why, this second makes sense. People no humor shaken. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:33:50 Yeah, swim, go [CMS 28/S-029] 10:33:55 And then our regular 2 o'clock a second to November, Wednesday. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:34:12 I may be able to escape. Yeah, Second. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:34:31 2 to 2 o'clock this time, so minus the sum of them. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:34:38 Yeah, yeah, sorry. Yeah, that's what I wanna, do shortly. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:34:44 Well, but that we I'll I'll send it email when when you can, pouring your coffee What happened to me as well. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:34:52 Oh, yeah, yeah. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:34:55 But it was one last practical point [CMS 28/S-029] 10:35:07 Around the top of the hour we're done with. But Yeah, I always read it [CMS 28/S-029] 10:35:19 And with that, Thank you. Yeah, Yeah, let us think also for the next meeting about it. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:35:25 That egg is linked, and I'll for at least 4 fractional things. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:35:28 Think about it, I guess let's think about how to get in your Hbc. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:35:33 Has accessible things. And the third thing is that I'll write the proposal for the Isdc shouldn't have the full paper. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:35:42 Also that are my 3 accessible things. For now, if I have written it down, I always like the otherwise I Well, that's always fine. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:35:58 top from last time, which was nice, but [CMS 28/S-029] 10:36:09 yeah, there's no date yet. That was what I was going to ask. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:36:17 Is there a date? Is Gc. Is definitely the third week of March, and Hex is the fourth week of March. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:36:28 in in type, thing, computing, they're trying to get again again. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:36:46 Yeah, Yeah, that's the week of May, 8, It's it's a service. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:36:53 nothing relevant for the end of February might work. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:36:59 and that's a bit soon after the U. S. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:37:01 Money, yeah, I don't expect much much overlooking. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:37:09 Yeah, they depends. Who we're trying to If we're trying to get lots of community representatives here. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:37:17 Thank you. Show me digitally. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:37:27 Better to leave it to April. So I have the same problem with Wise, you see, cause that that was, I've got to say, wise meetings. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:37:44 Sig Ism. Decided to have a half day virtual meeting on the 30 first of October, and they already decided that meeting in the afternoon. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:37:53 So Then I said, Do you want to meet Wise in the morning? [CMS 28/S-029] 10:37:56 Because we often went for the afternoon so that we could involve, and so I said, No, it's too soon. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:38:01 It doesn't do that, and then they're talking about meeting in person in March. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:38:10 Oh! And what have you? And said, I'll need to talk to the Student Committee about it. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:38:21 But but again it might be difficult. If it really is March, this is Yeah, Casiko is some come to tie back. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:38:29 Well they over once. But see your appearance [CMS 28/S-029] 10:38:39 So I really don't quite know what to do with what's happening. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:38:42 I just hoping 6 months ago that we would have a in-person music somewhere at this autumn. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:38:48 This is I don't think that's now to me, or too late. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:38:57 so I would like to have an in-person wise meeting in the spring. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:39:03 So what to what? [CMS 28/S-029] 10:39:13 it's it's an activity that leads revitalizing. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:39:16 And then we have most of the real action is the income people as ever [CMS 28/S-029] 10:39:24 And I'm also stuck on this Gdp. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:39:28 we We've got to, you know. Decide what it is. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:39:31 We're going to do because we need to take forward with the arc guidance on Gdp. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:39:37 Which the arc guidance was, do VCR like and minimize risk sufficiently. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:39:43 The risks to the ends, Subjects is so small that you don't need to do a dpi and doing sort of. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:39:53 But then we discussed with our Enron colleagues, and they say No, it has to be fully, illegally, but have all sorts of contracts, and you sort of suppose Yes, we know that that's Gdp. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:40:04 But what is the advice to the research community? So it can't do whole. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:40:08 Yeah, by lying contracts with everybody and we kind of got stuck, and we had other than how are we gonna conclude on that services? [CMS 28/S-029] 10:40:21 I mean, it could even be that we just decide not to touch the [CMS 28/S-029] 10:40:29 As if if the people in the wise Sci want to agree This is an alpha is quite strong. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:40:36 You can't do. That's not legal. Okay. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:40:41 So [CMS 28/S-029] 10:40:48 lots of things you do that are illegal. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:40:50 Yeah, you should know those are very profitable. Yeah, they are. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:40:53 Now and it's all the guidance we're getting from, you know. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:40:57 Sort of guns. From the end runs the guidance from me. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:41:00 Ask the guy from everything is how to fully leak at the he deployed. We got all the requirements, and we kind of know that And then we that doesn't help us, because because we can't do it. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:41:16 So, so, maybe if we can't do anything, just people, I'm kind of. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:41:26 I'm cutting [CMS 28/S-029] 10:41:27 I'm cutting more and more convinced we should try to explain risk management on how to accept residual risk, And that's not something a lawyer should say. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:41:35 That's an executive decision. Accepting residual risk Yeah, that can be different for each organization. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:41:45 But uber uber was very clear about. We take a huge risk. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:41:48 We are completely illegal. We ignore all the labor laws, but we outcompete everyone else. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:41:56 Therefore it's worthwhile It was a good job on that one and then you could still argue I was thinking that when you were looking for this 55 topics I I've wondered that this whole risk thing and everything, because it is it is kind of a new [CMS 28/S-029] 10:42:12 appropriate this in every years, but we are trying to make progress anything else in other places. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:42:16 the better management of risk I I I like your state with accepting users. It's it's knowing when cause some of the notes you know, with as we said, you know, in the past when we talked to Andrew Koma. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:42:32 He was involved. With many of the other discussions, and he was not happy. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:42:36 This is a good, you know you're trying to minimize the risk by making sure that the data is not sensitive by you know, Controlling it as best you can, and and it is that it's it's minimized risk services and all of the identity management and everything is all linked the the Arc: guidance paper is well [CMS 28/S-029] 10:42:57 well, written, this is yeah, okay. And maybe we can't improve it, you know. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:43:01 But it's a The biggest problem was our our template referred to the 1995 Directive, and not to Gdp. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:43:09 So if we just stopped it, the records might be enough, because then lawyers would say, But you can. You can't be doing this. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:43:16 This is that direct is gone. Oh, dude! Because once we started changing that, we started changing [CMS 28/S-029] 10:43:30 Okay, yeah, Yeah, I didn't get it myself yet. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:43:41 That's more what I thought [CMS 28/S-029] 10:43:48 Been doing yeah, well, just to do with it for 20 min. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:43:54 Yeah, okay, Love: venture and disappointment. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:44:05 City White nations. Oh, oh! In my setting nations! [CMS 28/S-029] 10:44:10 Oh! A home! [CMS 28/S-029] 10:44:15 oh, a home! This is transcript that's still going. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:44:21 Oh! [CMS 28/S-029] 10:44:27 Like, okay, yeah. [CMS 28/S-029] 10:44:59 in the ecosystem but I think I'll leave it for Oh, well, for my! [CMS 28/S-029] 10:45:17 things from the presentation. I wouldn't [CMS 28/S-029] 10:45:29 Like I have a You can tell fairly quickly that it's not written Time, woman.