Future workflows and discussions
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:49:53
just looking forward. What we need to restrict kind of clothes that we run on clouds on Hpcs when we want to.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:50:00
5 years from now. Will it make sense for us to partition our workflows?
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:50:05
Will we be able to expect Hpcs to just run all types of jobs Clouds be able to do that?
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:50:11
It sounds like, for clouds, The answer is kind of yes already, but that remains to be seen.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:50:16
If the Hpcs will be able to do that, you know what what technologies, features, or policies are needed, you know.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:50:25
Are there any capabilities provided by Pcr. Cloud that would allow us to run more clothes that we can't learn other places right?
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:50:33
and start to stiple some ideas here, but we will have some further discussion in the Rna section.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:50:40
yeah, have a cloud. It seems like we can basically run whatever we want.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:50:43
But we're limited by cost, and we can talk about that more in the yeah and the focus area.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:50:49
But yeah, is open for restricted to the fact that there's sort of a because it's obviously easier.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:51:00
If you can run everything, it's better, but you know, maybe we really should think sometimes for some machines should be different workflows, because that's what they're designed for.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:51:15
But everything's not a now. It's a balance, because if you restrict it too much, it's completely on and and uninteresting for the experiment, and you will never be able to fetch it
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:51:28
I mean, if you want to fetch it, it has to be something that can run the majority of what you're doing, Otherwise I expect.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:51:37
I mean, we discussed this over the weeks. I mean, we got the comment.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:51:42
If it's only can run a generator, it might still th that will probably get your your proposal through.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:51:47
But you're not going to get the hours credited
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:51:52
Most I mean at least not easily. Maybe that's one of the outcomes from this to push towards the actual Wlcg.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:52:02
Sam on it. Hope you're hearing this so that we should get credit.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:52:08
We should work towards the thing. We're useful, Useful computation gets credit, no matter what it is, but the use for the the pledging comes before the useful computation. If the resource is limited, that makes it less useful, resources you kind of basically I see the argument.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:52:28
That when you go in I have this allocation 100 million hours on the Hpc.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:52:34
Center, that and I can run one generator and then there's the tier one side.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:52:38
I have 100 million hours equivalent over the whole year, or the allocation period.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:52:44
It's worth more It's worth more to the experiment.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:52:47
And I see that point
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:52:50
Okay, yeah, But again, we're where we are is right now.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:52:55
We're we're saying it's Worth was right
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:53:01
Worthwhile that I I hope to get a 1 billion dollars a mad graph.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:53:05
I was 1 billion hours of that front front somewhere, because I hope is that it enables something for experiment, or it awful lot from back one which is flexible.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:53:18
So so do we need to be where we need to be pledging a different quality of service level.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:53:25
I I don't know. I I I think it doesn't have to be for this blueprint, but I think somebody actually needs to step up and provide a proposal.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:53:37
That people can disagree with. But but actually, somebody at some point needs to do some writing to say, Here's a model, I think, is useful, and and be able to so willing to think criticism right.
[Taylor Childers] 12:53:49
Isn't this a void? I mean this The larger question is, how do you make more?
[Taylor Childers] 12:54:01
the L. The Lhc workflows compatible with modern architectures. Right?
[Taylor Childers] 12:54:07
I mean, and of course I understand all the hang ups there.
[Taylor Childers] 12:54:12
I'm just saying that we can talk about what architectures aren't working for the HD.
[Taylor Childers] 12:54:22
Community. As long as we want, but we also need to be moving our our software in a direction that makes it easier to approach different hardware, cause I mean, it's just gonna get worse before it gets better you're going in in their own direction.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:54:41
Yeah.
[Taylor Childers] 12:54:45
With hardware The Jones going in their own direction with hardware.
[Taylor Childers] 12:54:49
The Us is probably, gonna, I assume, continue with the us manufacturers.
[Taylor Childers] 12:54:55
okay, for political reasons, and of course, the Chinese are all developing their own and plan on having tons of compute power available.
[Taylor Childers] 12:55:04
So it's it's really question of Why can't we move in that direction?
[Taylor Childers] 12:55:11
And of course I I think we all know those answers.
[Taylor Childers] 12:55:13
But it maybe needs to travel up the up the chain.
[Taylor Childers] 12:55:19
One
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:55:22
Contract. It was
[Kaushik De] 12:55:26
yeah, right. Wanted to make a few comments about this this.
[Kaushik De] 12:55:36
I mean, it's not that it is useful for experiments to get access to resources.
[Kaushik De] 12:55:46
That may not be globally useful, and provide the value for particular workflows.
[Kaushik De] 12:55:56
I mean, we have the tools to make use of resources like that.
[Kaushik De] 12:56:00
Assuming we are not spending years of development and operational effort to to 2 use the resource, I think there's nothing wrong with having specialized resources as long as they're easy to use.
[Kaushik De] 12:56:17
I mean the experiments know how to use them.
[Kaushik De] 12:56:19
I think the the question is, how do you assign a value to that resource?
[Kaushik De] 12:56:28
I mean clearly that resource. You using the example that this is given, comparing, you know, a 100 million hours at Hbc.
[Kaushik De] 12:56:38
That only runs generators versus 100 million hours at 50 year, one that can do everything for the experiment.
[Kaushik De] 12:56:43
Clearly the 2 things are not the same, so the question is, how how do we assign different values to those 2 different kind of resources?
[Kaushik De] 12:56:50
And I think that is the real challenge for this working group.
[Kaushik De] 12:56:55
I mean, that's what we really need to come up with with our out of this workshop is is how do we assign a fair value to one more?
[Kaushik De] 12:57:03
Is the other
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:57:09
That's a great way to maybe, break for the for lunch break, and we have the Hpc focus area where we have more time to go into some of these things in more detail, and we'll have more slides prepared to cover some of that one thing I just want to mention before we closed the
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:57:25
framework. Developments are specifically supposed to be outside the scope.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:57:31
I mean, we'll touch it a little bit, because it's some of the sets the scope of what's usable and what's not.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:57:36
But we don't want to go into that Yeah, we have to partition somewhere.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:57:39
Yeah, please, let's not go design to do that themselves.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:57:52
You're from actually the Hbc. People like And I'm gonna go, Okay, So we'll we'll break for an hour.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:58:04
We'll be back at one o'clock us Central time, and we'll do the Hbc.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:58:10
Focuser.
[Enrico Fermi Institute] 12:58:12
See, everybody, then
[Andrew Melo] 13:00:38
everybody I had to pop out for a second, or we don't schedule the at one Pm.
[John Steven De Stefano Jr] 13:00:48
scheduled to reconvene in 1 h to oh, 2 Pm.
[John Steven De Stefano Jr] 13:00:53
Here in Eastern
[Andrew Melo] 13:00:56
Gotcha. Okay, So we're on schedule.
[Andrew Melo] 13:00:57