[Eastern time]

Network / Site connectivity slides

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Enrico Fermi Institute: So yeah, one of the things we wanted to talk about was uh, you know just how how our sheer ones your choose are connected uh today, and sort of what the the the the plans are for that in the future. Um! Some of the some of the forward-looking stuff, um! And then we'll also have a presentation from from uh dale cart vesnet

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Enrico Fermi Institute: um to give us some of his thoughts as well. Yeah, One of the questions that comes up here is

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Enrico Fermi Institute: especially with the clouds. What can we do about connecting things to Lhs. You want and hearing all this business

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Enrico Fermi Institute: people like to talk about address costs. Is there anything any quick and easy thing we can do to reduce those

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Enrico Fermi Institute: um.

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Enrico Fermi Institute: So for site, connectivity? Um

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Enrico Fermi Institute: for Cms one hundred gigabit all the your two sites turn our gate with to to Fermi lab evolution of the of us-based site connectivity. There's plans to demonstrate

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Enrico Fermi Institute: over a hundred gigabit uh transfers of two thousand and twenty-three sensitive plans to have tier two's at four hundred gigabits in two thousand and twenty-five uh for me. Lab has plans for upgrades, but they're taking sort of a year by your approach. I don't know dirt if you want to add anything else to that.

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Dirk: No, that's basically it. I mean it. It's a little. All these plans are kind of tended. If we know we have to upgrade to get to H. And let it see, and it's going to be a process. But the exact schedule is a bit

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Dirk: and and undefined at the moment,

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Enrico Fermi Institute: and I should say that a lot of these

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Enrico Fermi Institute: plans were

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Enrico Fermi Institute: not said so, but there are.

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Enrico Fermi Institute: The plans were developed before the slip of the La, the agency schedule. So, um, you know i'd be willing. We're already talking about maybe pushing the the demonstration of greater than one hundred greater than one hundred gigabit transfers to twenty-four. Um. So now that we have a couple of more years, we're probably going to shift things back a bit

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Enrico Fermi Institute: on the Atlas side. Yeah, So we have a hard view, but it says a few, but it's really most of the tier two are basically at or near one hundred gigabits, some somehow more than

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Enrico Fermi Institute: hundreds of two by one hundred things like that. Um, The tier one, so I understand, has at least four by one hundred gigabit. So if i'm i'm just representing any of the sites. Just jump out and correct me. Um. And yeah,

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Enrico Fermi Institute: our expectation is that, you know, in the future we'll we'll have multiple hundred gigabytes of connectivity. Um, you know, one or more site may have uh four hundred gigabit links that I think a lot of it depends on the on the economics of uh of when it's sensible to. Uh to start buying four hundred.

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Enrico Fermi Institute: Yes, that plans. Yeah. So I think we now we can. We can jump to to Dale's presentation. If you're you're out there. Jail.

ESNET presentation

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Enrico Fermi Institute: Yes, sounds good. Okay, great. I'm going to stop share here and you can. You can start your share.

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Dale Carder: All Righty. All thanks for having me here today and feel free to to interrupt. I like this interactive approach a lot more than me, just uh preaching. So it's kind of got um an overview of

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Dale Carder: sort of the do we? Uh networking perspective on Hpc. Facilities. Tier one,

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Dale Carder: and then we'll get into some cloud stuff, and then

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Dale Carder: then I sort of trail off into where I have more questions than answers, which is, I guess, not surprising,

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Dale Carder: given What? Where some of these conversations have been.

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Dale Carder: So the biggest thing I want to emphasize with respect to not just where we are now. But you know,

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Dale Carder: through sort of the timeline between now and the beginnings of high luminosity. Lhc: And we we had this big, you know, uh process to build. Yes, net six, and some of the key components included, building our physical network into each Doe National lab,

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Dale Carder: and that means our fiber extends in there with our equipment collocated at the site um with Routers that we run there, so we can offer essentially any. Yes, net service at any national lab at full scale.

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Dale Carder: It's also. Now, the Esnet owns the optical equipment, and basically the end to end connectivity extremely cost effective uh to upgrade it. It's not going out and procuring uh circuits from vendors. You know things along that line. We're doing all of our optical engineering in house

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Dale Carder: now, so we can go out and buy modems from any vendor off the shelf, and to put them under our network after we qualify them.

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Dale Carder: So it's sort of a very different evolution model from sort of the traditional backbone approach of buying circuits and and linking things together on hot by Hop!

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Dale Carder: Um!

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Dale Carder: There was already a little bit showing of sort of like where we were at connectivity. Wise um for each of the Lcfs and nurse basically we're right now at this precipice of going from

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Dale Carder: um and by one hundred get connectivity to four hundred gig and class connectivity. Um sort of everyone's got a little bit slightly different timeline depending on on large part due to equipment, shortages and things of that sort, but generally across the the big deal we facilities. This is all kind of happening in parallel.

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Dale Carder: Um, There's yesterday. There's a lot of talk about nurse being sort of different than the Lcs. Which is fair. Um, they're targeting one terabit per second um basically into their their facility, and that's that's not through um the lab that's direct. And for me it's not to nurse

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Dale Carder: where I think this puts us, and you know we're like. At least I want to be is that the limiting factor is going to be at the site, you know, if we can basically show up to the door of Fermi Lab, or show you the door of

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Dale Carder: nerves wherever with essentially all you can eat connectivity you,

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Dale Carder: it's now onto the Border Router security junk

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Dale Carder: data transfer nodes and storage

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Dale Carder: where the scaling factors are going to be. Not necessarily the wide area now.

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Dale Carder: So that's that's sort of where where I think we're going to be, at least in the next

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Dale Carder: couple of years. We've got a long life cycle on, especially the optical network that we've built

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Dale Carder: there any questions sort of on this front,

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Dale Carder: and I think we will drift off into cloud stuff.

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Enrico Fermi Institute: So when is the four hundred Gigabit stuff expected to become

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Dale Carder: economical. So it's a funny term, but uh, it's almost more about availability right now. Can you buy equipment or not? And in some cases you can actually only buy the newer equipment because it's It's smaller uh fab sizes that are actually being produced

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Dale Carder: versus the larger tabs where you're competing with chips for dishwashers and things like that. So it's it's It's sort of this funny funny point. But in our in our conversations with

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Dale Carder: um I think we're up to like sixty or seventy of the tier two's. Nearly everyone has a has a plan for the next couple of years. It's either like next year or or right after that. So we're pretty much right at that point. Now,

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Dale Carder: a lot of that's driven by. You know the economics of these major um cloud data centers. So if you can buy equipment, sort of, you know, matching what the industry as a whole is buying, you're going to reap the words of that cost effectiveness. There

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Enrico Fermi Institute: is. Is there a concern that, like I know it doesn't apply for a lot of sites, but for for things like uh like firewalls and things like that. I know a lot of some. Some sites are more concerned about that than others like are the firewall appliances sort of keeping pace with the

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Dale Carder: i'll say no. I don't think there's truly been a demonstrated track record of that.

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Dale Carder: You know we still see

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Dale Carder: traffic compound what

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Dale Carder: forty ish annually

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Dale Carder: Um! Those firewalls and middle boxes are designed for typically administrative workloads where end of the day there's only so much data where all you guys sitting on your laptops in the conference room are gonna be competing for resources. That's very different. Right then. Uh it's scientific computing.

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Dale Carder: So there's things you know. Yes, kind of sort of worked on on that team such as like the Science team, Z model for

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Dale Carder: you know how to place resources at a site, how to change the perimeter architecture to better accommodate the

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Dale Carder: um data intensive sciences. So there there's there's opportunities there. But you know I I still don't see a world where you would go for a or could cost effectively deploy and off the shelf like Firewall Middlebox.

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Okay,

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Dirk: I'd love to be proven wrong. So can please do. Yeah, yeah, I had to comment on the the last line on this slide where you said Vice- white disparity in hp support for data centric workforce. I mean. We discussed that yesterday to a lot, and we know where I was

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Dirk: curious was If this actually

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Dirk: has an impact on how the

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Dirk: these Hpc. Facilities approach that building up their external connectivity, or if they just if that doesn't matter, they're still going for full connectivity to the to the data transfer notes, at least, even if they don't, they don't have the the like nurse where they want to support like

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Dale Carder: right, so it's helpful for me to think about this in terms of procurement life cycles, because I think the the Lcfs are also very much in that world

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Dale Carder: where you go out and you survey the user community for needs come up with a list of, you know, used cases that you're going to support, and you take the doe as part of Cd. Zero and say, Here, here's the mission need of what we do. Go into alternatives, analysis, and so on.

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Dale Carder: And then, five years later a machine shows up right on the dock right and and gets installed.

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Dale Carder: So it's really about being ahead of that, and then yes, networ in the exact same boat. So when we built the S. That's exactly the process we went through, beginning five six years ago, and here we are what they're going to have, like our official on grand unveiling next month.

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Dale Carder: Uh so in like, on the yesness side of the world, we've had these requirements, Reviews. So many of you here participated in the in the Requirements Review for for ha! We're currently doing one now for basic energy sciences, and this goes directly into our, You know, longer term procurement, forecast budgets

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Dale Carder: and things of of that nature, so that a we don't over build, you know, and spend a lot of taxpayer resources um way too early,

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Dale Carder: nor get caught on the other end, far, far behind from what where the needs lie.

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Dale Carder: This is essentially, we solve this on our end through just constant communication, and

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Dale Carder: beating people up like Andrew Mellow for for status as to what's going on, and and making sure that we're in lockstep.

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Dale Carder: So for for nurse like I said yesterday. Um like there has been a we're doing a requirements review for for basic uh energy sciences. And in there will be a case study for Lcls to, I think, and how that

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Dale Carder: that operation at Slack is going to be integrated with nurse because they're talking again. Terabytes

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Dale Carder: uh workflows from the beam line to compute, and then autonomous steering back.

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Dale Carder: So there's There's things there that that could be of relevance to this group to see how other groups are

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Dale Carder: are sort of handling it.

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Enrico Fermi Institute: So all right. So well, yeah, do you have one more? I'll do one more, and and if this is covered in another slide. Feel free to defer. Uh. But what's What's the yes net thinking on on on caching in the network.

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Dale Carder: Yeah, I'll. I'll have just a bullet on that. Yeah, we can. We can kind of open it up there as I get into the more.

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Dale Carder: Yeah, So let's talk about clouds. So there's sort of

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Dale Carder: the terminology around. Cloud stuff is like

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Dale Carder: amazingly hard to comprehend, because every vendor has their own

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Dale Carder: proprietary language, and they'll use the same words, and none of them are like actually descriptive of what's going on. But let's lump that into two bins,

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Dale Carder: Public cloud and Private cloud.

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Dale Carder: Public cloud is. You know what happens when you were to just log into an Ec. Two, console and and fire up a Vm. And you're going to get a network that's essentially, you know, to be this public facing

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Dale Carder: um,

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Dale Carder: and you know the those egress charges we you know, keep hearing about, apply, and things of that nature.

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Dale Carder: Private cloud.

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Dale Carder: This is where you would be um standing up, you know multitudes of um, instances of compute with some private back end network, and then that private back end network has some sort of, you know, egress

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Dale Carder: uh delivered through a multitude of means. But then that it has to connect to something out right right. It's fully self-contained. Uh, So you have to either connect back to your home institution or you some tunneling technology Uh, optionally. You can bring your own Ip, addressing Uh.

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Dale Carder: These typical workloads are administrative computing, so say, University of Chicago. Wanted to put the Hr system in in the cloud and keep it on the University of Chicago Network, as it Hr: Data, This is the technology would use. And you know, this should be like I should put this involved, but like

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Dale Carder: it's very expensive. And we're talking about data rates, you know, commiserate with administrative computing, not research computing.

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Dale Carder: And that's why you see, software Routers um software appliances doing these Cpms. So they've come up with um in addition to just multiple ways to extract money from you different ways to work around these limitations. So

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Dale Carder: if you're beyond the scale of what you can get away with with, you know, using a software based router and software. Based, you know, vpning traffic back to an institution.

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Dale Carder: There's uh dedicated interconnects that these are like, essentially charged by the hour uh connections. That's why I tried to put this like city going to the restaurant. This is the four dollars sign, you know. Uh menu option.

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Dale Carder: Um, you have Cloud Exchange, which was sort of some where you'd have like this uh intermediate broker, managing like the physical infrastructure for you. We have some of these today on Yes, now we're working to deprecate them because They're the three dollars same level,

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Dale Carder: and we're replacing them with this partner interconnection model, which is where you go out and you procure. And by you I mean like Yes, net goes out and procures a middle man

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Dale Carder: to handle this sort of like interconnection and get away from the hourly charge. Port charges um to the various entities

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Dale Carder: and throw some, you know, virtualization on top of that, and come out the only the two dollar sign approach.

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Dale Carder: But again, these are still it

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Dale Carder: humble data rates. Um! There's to put actual money on here. It's It's nearly impossible to. Uh, you know. Figure out what these things cost like. You need a, you know a used to car salesman to help you

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Dale Carder: uh figure this out, so putting that into like, Where are we today? Um connectivity wise. So in the public cloud realm again. Uh, if you' to stand up, you know

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Dale Carder: you know random sets of machines. This is sort of the connectivity we have, which is, you know, three hundred connections to major markets for Google, six connections to Oracle, five to Amazon, five to Microsoft.

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Dale Carder: And these are basically there and ready to go um, such as it's been mentioned earlier on, like Fermi labs being able to take advantage of the Google connectivity um

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Dale Carder: on a couple of occasions. Now, most recently, I think, in October, when last October, when there was that inference training on

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Dale Carder: um These are are very, very cost-effective. Such that we pay for these essentially out of the operating budget to the

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Dale Carder: So this is just our cost to doing business. We shared across all, do we? On it's. It's not a big problem, because what we do much like we built and teach the national labs we built. Yes, net six into the major commercial facilities. So we're there.

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Dale Carder: So a lot of these connections is just a jumper across the building. You know that kind of thing from our network to that that network There, go ahead.

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Dirk: But this this basically this doesn't give you a cost advantage. It just gives you capabilities. Right?

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Dirk: Yep, exactly. But this especially as Google. This matches very well with their uh, their flat, you know. Subscription model. Yeah, I mean, yeah, you still have the normal cost. So if you go. If you go just on demand, you just pay normal ecosystems. You just have to fast data connect there that we that you can actually run your workflows and then subscription. Okay, if you get rid of egress and you can, of course, use it fully. Okay. Thanks.

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Dale Carder: Yeah, exactly. I think Oracle also may grave egress fees. I forget who is using that. Uh in in do we

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Enrico Fermi Institute: so so quickly, though so to take advantage of this? If I were to log on the Ec. Two, and I've landed, and I guess the right availability. So I don't need to do anything special to jump on to. If i'm moving data from somewhere in Amazon to somewhere connected to Esnet. Six

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Enrico Fermi Institute: uh to me is the quote unquote user I don't have to do anything special to

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Dale Carder: right, and it's it's both. This whole slide probably applies both to Esnet and to Internet. To I think we're probably nearly identical and capabilities in this regard, because we it's just easy to scale up as as usage

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Dale Carder: is in place. One thing i'll point out, though you know, in these direct connections to these peers.

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Dale Carder: There is like human to human level negotiation to get these into place.

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Dale Carder: So, for example, it took months to connect to Google. You know, they said, well how much you're going to use, and we're like, I don't know all of it,

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Dale Carder: right. They were like, yeah, whatever. And then what we do we use all of you know, all of their gpus, for example, because we can.

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Dale Carder: Um, These providers are much more used to like diurnal traffic flows uh like you would see with, you know, commercial users during the day, and you know, residential users at night. Um, so there's like

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Dale Carder: to get these in place does require some negotiation and some long-reach plan,

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Dale Carder: because we have to talk them into it and prove we're going to use it

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Dale Carder: hollow. I see you've got your hand up.

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Paolo Calafiura (he): Yeah, I I It was a kind of a question already asked, but and then and then another one, so I I believe that there was also some uh peeing agreement with on the right if if we use your your boxes. But

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Paolo Calafiura (he): some discounts are you guys with up? If I recall correctly the Amazon. One is something more like if you use X amount of compute, some percentage of that can be. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Something on that. And then, just out of curiosity. Why do you have the most boxes to? Or a call Is Is Is that the just because it happened? And they were easy to deal with, or because there is a use for use it for a long

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Dale Carder: um. There's almost certainly someone going to use it like do is very, very big. So between uh office of science and an essay, and all the other stuff going on. Um, there's also, uh, you know, the the doe uh Federal network itself, which is now overlay on. Yes, net

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Dale Carder: sort of That's the nice thing about Once you hit the scale, we can kind of share the economics of this,

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Dale Carder: and then quickly I go over the the private cloud interconnects. Uh So this is where we have uh we're pretty into place actually, as we speak uh, tear a bit of connectivity to a third party called fabric packet fabric, and then they go through and punch uh uh physical connectivity into each of the vendors

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Dale Carder: for the private cloud hosting that will replace things like we had previously with uh the Cloud Exchange product. So again, that's It's a bit more um, you know, targeting administrative workloads. But

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Dale Carder: as we get into talking about Lhc. One, maybe it's a model that could be used there, too. I don't know

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Dale Carder: uh Dirk,

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Dirk: I think Fernando was first. If he wants to go.

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Dirk: No, now he will lower the sand. I I just had a quick question. So sorry. Sorry I was not. I was on mute,

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Fernando Harald Barreiro Megino: and I still didn't get over the public cloud section. So if i'm uh I need to be on Google on the Availability Zone, Seattle on the region Seattle, Chicago, or Nyc. In order to

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Fernando Harald Barreiro Megino: my trousers, go through Esnet.

1139
15:12:54,640 --> 15:13:11,879
Dale Carder: Every vendor is different with Google. I think they announce, or they they will haul traffic regardless of where it ingresses or egresses. Their network. Amazon is the exact opposite where you have to send it to traffic to the exact zone. So everyone it

1140
15:13:11,890 --> 15:13:18,989
Dale Carder: All these systems are proprietary in that regard, and you, unfortunately kind of have to know in advance what you're walking into,

1141
15:13:24,480 --> 15:13:31,589
Fernando Harald Barreiro Megino: and there is a transit to I mean Southwest you to or anywhere at some university, and

1142
15:13:31,630 --> 15:13:34,459
Fernando Harald Barreiro Megino: the Us. That will

1143
15:13:35,020 --> 15:13:40,880
Fernando Harald Barreiro Megino: go through the in, I mean, through the normal Internet will not end up in years now, right

1144
15:13:41,730 --> 15:13:51,500
Dale Carder: right? So for Google, that'd be the case for Amazon, Where? Yes, that does not appear with Amazon in Europe we would probably never see the traffic until it shows up through whatever

1145
15:13:51,750 --> 15:13:53,490
Dale Carder: all their path exists.

1146
15:13:53,590 --> 15:13:54,440
Okay,

1147
15:13:54,860 --> 15:13:57,260
Fernando Harald Barreiro Megino: Okay, thanks.

1148
15:13:58,290 --> 15:14:08,890
Dirk: Okay, And I had a question yesterday. That was when I, when we talked briefly about Lanceium. There was a I remember, from talking with them that they said they had plans to peer with.

1149
15:14:08,900 --> 15:14:24,610
Dirk: I think it was the snet. Are you aware of anything? I mean? I think they're still building the data center? So i'm not sure at what stage they are with that on that. But our general, our our peering policy, is relatively wide open songs. We can justify it

1150
15:14:24,720 --> 15:14:34,139
Dale Carder: uh so in any in new market entrance which should not be a barrier on the network as long as they show up at essentially any

1151
15:14:34,260 --> 15:14:44,270
Dale Carder: major uh co-location facility where networks come and meet together. So, for example, we're in Houston we're in dallas we're in El Paso I mean kind of their neck of the woods.

1152
15:14:46,180 --> 15:14:48,409
Dale Carder: So that question is very easy.

1153
15:14:53,330 --> 15:14:57,830
Dale Carder: All right, all right. Um, This is sort of more like the

1154
15:14:58,240 --> 15:15:00,100
Dale Carder: I dumped all the other stuff here.

1155
15:15:00,180 --> 15:15:07,480
Dale Carder: Um. So some other things. Yes, that has um that sort of just worth having on your laundry list of things to know. It exists.

1156
15:15:07,620 --> 15:15:10,210
Dale Carder: Um, one is, you know,

1157
15:15:10,530 --> 15:15:29,139
Dale Carder: Api's. And you know, dynamic requesting of resources is something that Yes, that's um long since supported for layer, two circuits, including uh on bandwidth scheduling uh on demand um and prioritization. That is how the Ic. Op. And

1158
15:15:29,150 --> 15:15:32,900
Dale Carder: uh circuits are instantiated between it's your zero and the tier one's

1159
15:15:33,160 --> 15:15:42,740
Dale Carder: um also sort of in-flight is um dynamic layer three instantiation works internally the snet. We actually used it for lsst

1160
15:15:42,840 --> 15:15:47,320
Dale Carder: uh between slack and uh, the the South American networks.

1161
15:15:47,570 --> 15:16:07,369
Dale Carder: Um. It's completely conceivable to open that up also, and that could be used as a way if you wanted to. Dynamically, uh, you know, acquire cloud resources at the Api endpoint and and fire it up. Um! So these things are very much like near reality. Showed a used case. Justify for their development.

1162
15:16:07,500 --> 15:16:19,190
Dale Carder: Um, there's an R. And D project underway with um Russia and integration with our framework called sense, which is again a more on uh, you know, dynamic network path, provisioning

1163
15:16:19,610 --> 15:16:24,199
Dale Carder: across the

1164
15:16:24,920 --> 15:16:26,660
Dale Carder: what you call it on

1165
15:16:27,930 --> 15:16:40,060
Dale Carder: uh potential sort of sort of kicking off now. Um, where um sort of like the nurse super facility concept is sort of making it, you know the logical next sleep

1166
15:16:40,620 --> 15:16:55,390
Dale Carder: uh internal to Yes, and we now have um Fpga experience in house. So we have uh been working on some projects where we're using Fpga's um to accelerate uh different

1167
15:16:55,450 --> 15:17:11,650
Dale Carder: the sort of like used cases we've seen um from like uh triggers to compute uh and load dynamically, load bouncing and hardware, or working on something like that for J. Lab. I think there is also a similar effort underway between uh

1168
15:17:11,760 --> 15:17:13,539
Dale Carder: Als and nurse

1169
15:17:14,050 --> 15:17:18,290
Dale Carder: um. In addition, those Fpgas can be used to, you know,

1170
15:17:18,420 --> 15:17:28,050
Dale Carder: in in my like crystal ball out like we think about. If we hit. You know the scaling limits of cpus. It also probably means we'll end up hitting the scaling limits of Tcp.

1171
15:17:28,150 --> 15:17:39,700
Dale Carder: Um. Someone smarter than me is probably already figured out when that exists. But, uh, we're we're sort of ready for that era with the ability and yes net code running on Fpga's today

1172
15:17:40,630 --> 15:17:48,639
Dale Carder: on the more operational side of the house. Um, we've got an R. And D project underway and deployment of uh packet marking

1173
15:17:48,650 --> 15:18:07,750
Dale Carder: uh. So using annotations in like the Ipd six packet header to identify uh what workload is running, and then reporting that back out from like an accounting perspective of you know what science, domain, and activity is on a particular link to something that's been. That'll be pretty useful for for

1174
15:18:07,760 --> 15:18:12,620
Dale Carder: planning, you know, capacity, planning, traffic, engineering, those sort of use cases.

1175
15:18:13,490 --> 15:18:27,130
Dale Carder: And then here's my catch all for, uh, you know X cash. So uh I I think it's certainly a a promising future of more integrated. Uh, you know,

1176
15:18:27,230 --> 15:18:39,629
Dale Carder: caching or even bigger picture storage on or in the network, and to better use the resources available to us, for example, latency hiding as being sort of an easier use case.

1177
15:18:39,640 --> 15:18:49,580
Dale Carder: And then uh, I think there's currently cashes There's one in California. I don't know the status. There might be one in Chicago, and also one plan for Boston.

1178
15:18:50,090 --> 15:19:01,929
Dale Carder: But it seems to me, you know, my engineer approach, for, like Guy, who doesn't make the decisions is that seems pretty straightforward, and something we should continue to work on.

1179
15:19:02,990 --> 15:19:21,869
Enrico Fermi Institute: Yeah, go ahead. No, I was gonna say i'm sorry. I thought you were gonna go on to the next slide. I was going to say i'm just rambling. Um, Could you talk a bit more about this uh the the layer three vpn instantiation. So So who this would be? Science expanding um

1180
15:19:21,890 --> 15:19:41,860
Dale Carder: their their vpn from from from whom? To whom? I guess you you know I mean how I build things. It's the support from anywhere to anywhere. So it's It's nebulous. Um, because it's you know it's a generic framework. So the idea being you've got site eight and site Z. They Wanna and and site F.

1181
15:19:42,270 --> 15:19:51,650
Dale Carder: They could create a private network overlay on the for that activities. Um, traditionally, that was something very hard to do. You'd have to go around, and, you know, signal up circuits, or

1182
15:19:51,700 --> 15:19:59,089
Dale Carder: do all this work Now it would look much more like, hey? Here's a vlan and can actually router into it, and it will just get to the other side,

1183
15:19:59,120 --> 15:20:09,500
Dale Carder: and it's completely private. It's the same technology that cloud providers are using on the back end for their virtual private networks. So if you guys, they're using the same kind of thing.

1184
15:20:09,900 --> 15:20:17,080
Enrico Fermi Institute: So so basically I I could hit some Api on on on the all side. And

1185
15:20:17,090 --> 15:20:42,269
Enrico Fermi Institute: you would say, Okay, you connect to V Vlan Number five hundred and twenty-three, and the other one connects to. I don't know six hundred and seventy-two, and that vlan on your on your end is gonna um The vlines are, you know, tunneled together? You. You handle stitching together the layer two surface, or whatever it takes to get from point. Yeah, or even layer three circuits. So you've got full resiliency within Continental us, and that kind of thing.

1186
15:20:42,290 --> 15:20:45,820
Dale Carder: So yeah, it's pretty promising. Uh,

1187
15:20:45,940 --> 15:21:03,750
Dale Carder: I think. Just need more exploration of what the used cases are there like. We built it for ourselves, but there's nothing preventing that um and sort of how it was designed to to take the setup. One of these circuits takes takes longer to fill out the form in our database,

1188
15:21:03,760 --> 15:21:21,099
Enrico Fermi Institute: Gotcha and does this, he said. Anyone anyone so I could in in potentially set this up, uh, you know, at Vayner built and have the other end be a cloud provider. Yeah, that's that's what i'm thinking could be a popular use case

1189
15:21:21,110 --> 15:21:25,710
Dale Carder: right? And and maybe even wanted to have a second cloud provider. I mean, that's It's totally doable.

1190
15:21:25,820 --> 15:21:32,929
Enrico Fermi Institute: Okay, Yeah, that definitely, I can definitely think of a a few interesting things you could do with that.

1191
15:21:33,340 --> 15:21:38,839
Dale Carder: It it's something that again it's sort of like. Let's plant the seed of a you know, capability that exists,

1192
15:21:39,060 --> 15:21:41,780
Enrico Fermi Institute: and see if there's a a good use for it.

1193
15:21:42,680 --> 15:21:44,940
Enrico Fermi Institute: Oh, thank you. Yeah,

1194
15:21:46,080 --> 15:21:52,379
Dale Carder: okay. And then here's where we drift off from the the known to the the less known.

1195
15:21:52,410 --> 15:22:02,250
Dale Carder: So this in thinking about sort of these facilities as part of a greater ecosystem we've covered the do we space? Well, because, like Bonnie Hasn't,

1196
15:22:02,370 --> 15:22:16,099
Dale Carder: Now, if you think about the Nsf. Hpc. Sites in particular, there's it's even more disparate as to their to their connectivity and capabilities. So some sites like off the top of my head

1197
15:22:16,860 --> 15:22:27,859
Dale Carder: uh San Diego um, and do extremely well connected like wouldn't wouldn't worry about them. Um, because typically they have like they own their infrastructure. Um!

1198
15:22:27,880 --> 15:22:33,060
Dale Carder: Ncsa is another one where moodles of network connect to it exists,

1199
15:22:33,270 --> 15:22:44,040
Dale Carder: but then there's other centers i'll, you know, unfortunately, like I think, is in the scenario, where, like their machine, is like often some business park outside of town or

1200
15:22:44,290 --> 15:22:49,719
Dale Carder: and it and there's not necessarily good connectivity to the for a data centric workflow.

1201
15:22:49,820 --> 15:22:56,510
Dale Carder: So if you're thinking about running more on Nsf. Hpc. Facilities, you need to have a facilitation with

1202
15:22:56,690 --> 15:23:01,789
Dale Carder: the sites you're thinking about to answer some key questions of. Can you get your data in and out

1203
15:23:02,030 --> 15:23:04,070
Dale Carder: uh in a production fashion?

1204
15:23:04,380 --> 15:23:08,250
Dale Carder: Because it's There's a huge disparity between sites

1205
15:23:09,720 --> 15:23:13,179
Dale Carder: now on the Us. Side. Um,

1206
15:23:13,510 --> 15:23:24,780
Dale Carder: We covered some of that um just before I started. But what of note? Yes, and that is talking to every single Us tier, two site basically in preparation for high luminosity.

1207
15:23:25,070 --> 15:23:32,899
Dale Carder: As such we were sort of like getting a good view as to where the the universities are, with their regional networks,

1208
15:23:33,370 --> 15:23:41,009
Dale Carder: and in general, I think, with enough prior planning which was our goal. The outlook continues to be good.

1209
15:23:41,080 --> 15:23:44,200
Dale Carder: Um! But we need to keep that facilitation game up

1210
15:23:44,300 --> 15:23:56,660
Dale Carder: uh and make sure that you know for especially universities that have one or two intermediate networks between them and yes, another internet too, that everything upgrades and lockstep, or we can't connect these things together,

1211
15:23:57,680 --> 15:24:00,260
Dale Carder: so that that present looks

1212
15:24:00,450 --> 15:24:18,510
Dale Carder: good, and the key to making this work from my perspective is the data challenges a thing where we can point to and say By this date it has to work as follows: The The data challenges are are going to be the the forcing function that the the community uses the for internal justification. The,

1213
15:24:18,520 --> 15:24:30,059
Dale Carder: you know, show their administration like the you know, the the pro or whatever like. Hey, We do need this stuff, and and here's where we're on. We need it by, and that that program is finally important.

1214
15:24:32,030 --> 15:24:38,670
Dale Carder: Now, on to the the perhaps more questioning stuff on my part, which is

1215
15:24:38,700 --> 15:24:46,129
Dale Carder: this community has a network called Lhc. One which is sort of called a whole nother Internet connecting just the

1216
15:24:46,150 --> 15:24:49,229
Dale Carder: resources together that exclusively

1217
15:24:49,350 --> 15:24:53,840
Dale Carder: you know work on these large-scale projects for Lhc

1218
15:24:54,160 --> 15:25:08,620
Dale Carder: So in the Us. You've got um Us Cms and us Atlas sites the tier one's in the tier, two centers connected to Lc. One, and then yes, net has transatlantic connectivity where we connect to our our peer networks in the Eu

1219
15:25:09,200 --> 15:25:13,050
Dale Carder: again to the major tier, one into your two centers.

1220
15:25:13,580 --> 15:25:16,670
Dale Carder: On those networks there is, you know,

1221
15:25:17,460 --> 15:25:28,839
Dale Carder: for better or worse. Ip addresses are used as authorization tokens for what traffic can go on to that network, because that network has an acceptable use policy defining what can and can't be on it.

1222
15:25:29,270 --> 15:25:34,900
Dale Carder: Uh, namely, it's exclusive. It's for exclusive use of obviously traffic.

1223
15:25:35,250 --> 15:25:46,019
Dale Carder: Now, in the case where you've got a dedicated facility and all it does. Or Maybe you have dedicated Dtn machines, and all they do is um, you know, traffic that's Top related.

1224
15:25:46,070 --> 15:25:54,429
Dale Carder: It's pretty straightforward when you start thinking about cloud resources, or even some of the bigger clusters, even seen like an open science grid.

1225
15:25:54,440 --> 15:26:08,900
Dale Carder: These are multi-science uh compute nodes. And we talked to our our peers at Brooklyn. This is already happening there where they they have cluster, can run any job but this restriction of what traffic can go over. Lhc. One

1226
15:26:09,470 --> 15:26:13,799
Dale Carder: a limiting factor, because now the source Ip address of the Node banners

1227
15:26:13,910 --> 15:26:16,910
Dale Carder: and trying to adhere to the aup,

1228
15:26:16,990 --> 15:26:18,649
Dale Carder: Is there a problem?

1229
15:26:19,940 --> 15:26:25,579
Dale Carder: So we figured this out essentially to the degree of very static resources. Right? This works

1230
15:26:25,710 --> 15:26:29,680
Dale Carder: very well for the tier ones and tier two is especially in the Us.

1231
15:26:29,890 --> 15:26:40,300
Dale Carder: But it does not to me have a clear understanding of how you would integrate external resources into this. Um!

1232
15:26:40,580 --> 15:26:50,020
Dale Carder: It's an open discussion uh at this point. It's not like I'm here with any answer. I'm just saying like I think we can all agree that something to be worked on

1233
15:26:50,830 --> 15:27:07,149
Dale Carder: um that has big and public implications, particularly for the transatlantic traffic. So that's why I had this on. Here is yes, that currently has five, one hundred. You pass across the Atlantic. We're bringing up uh two additional four hundred gig um paths.

1234
15:27:07,210 --> 15:27:08,380
Dale Carder: Um

1235
15:27:08,730 --> 15:27:12,250
Dale Carder: sometime next year. Hopefully, these are like very, very.

1236
15:27:12,320 --> 15:27:21,510
Dale Carder: It intensive builds um to get. You know we're not just buying circuits. We're buying spectrum on undersea cables and integrating it into our network

1237
15:27:21,930 --> 15:27:25,809
Dale Carder: so and then the contracting side of this is

1238
15:27:26,100 --> 15:27:39,229
Dale Carder: mind-bogglingly complex and these are multi year procurements with nda's in place. So we have additional links that we're going to come in after these two by four hundred. So we're trying to get on additional cables with additional spectrum.

1239
15:27:39,240 --> 15:27:46,920
Dale Carder: All of this is very easy for us to integrate into X one. It's very easy for us, and straightforward it integrated into the do ecosystem

1240
15:27:47,680 --> 15:27:53,679
Dale Carder: Again, How would you use? How would you use that with the like third party? Cloud sites

1241
15:27:54,780 --> 15:27:58,399
Dale Carder: open for exploration? It's not clear.

1242
15:27:59,460 --> 15:28:16,819
Enrico Fermi Institute: So so is it fair to say that, you know it seems like all the physical capability is kind of there when it comes to talking to clouds, but you know, doing things like getting a block of ips and announcing those to Lhc. One is, and challenging with the public clouds.

1243
15:28:16,880 --> 15:28:17,920
Dale Carder: Yup,

1244
15:28:18,030 --> 15:28:19,470
Dale Carder: um!

1245
15:28:19,580 --> 15:28:27,449
Dale Carder: Whereas maybe a more straightforward topology is actually maybe something more like he cloud where

1246
15:28:27,590 --> 15:28:29,010
Dale Carder: you know, from

1247
15:28:29,040 --> 15:28:32,810
Dale Carder: the networks perspective, it's Fermi lab on either end.

1248
15:28:32,960 --> 15:28:36,210
Dale Carder: It's for me lab stuff in the cloud for me to have stuff at home,

1249
15:28:36,310 --> 15:28:37,490
Dale Carder: and then it

1250
15:28:37,660 --> 15:28:39,219
Dale Carder: and branch out

1251
15:28:39,710 --> 15:28:59,000
Enrico Fermi Institute: that maybe it more workable model for at least for doe. So you're saying like for for transatlantic traffic you would. The Fermi lab is kind of the the responsible party for making sure that that they're agreeing with the aup and their traffic going across the transatlantic link is is Lhc. Traffic, and

1252
15:28:59,010 --> 15:29:02,869
Enrico Fermi Institute: and an appearing happens between the cloud and and Fermi Lab,

1253
15:29:03,190 --> 15:29:11,249
Dale Carder: or and yes. But yeah, So the the essentially is such that you know any do we resource can can do whatever they want?

1254
15:29:11,340 --> 15:29:24,840
Dale Carder: Um, including talk to universities. Um. But at present the aup doesn't straightforwardly allow a tier two to use cloud resources that would be brokered by Yes, and as the middle man,

1255
15:29:25,600 --> 15:29:31,230
Dale Carder: to use a cloud resource and expect it to use all this transatlantic capability

1256
15:29:31,390 --> 15:29:33,569
Dale Carder: on that he always invested in.

1257
15:29:36,890 --> 15:29:48,730
Dirk: Yeah, I wanted to comment on that, and I I think I mean you already said that that's part of the the strategy that you Cms is going with with with. Have cloud that we

1258
15:29:48,830 --> 15:29:51,169
Dirk: we kind of keep it contained.

1259
15:29:51,180 --> 15:30:08,940
Dirk: So if we like the large okay, we haven't done anything with large cloud use in a while like, not nothing like the the Amazon test and the Google test, and five six years ago. But but even then I think we only targeted regions, the resources in the Us. So that the the kind of the data traffic,

1260
15:30:09,170 --> 15:30:17,359
Dirk: the data traffic was contained in the Us. Mostly to between Fermi lab and these external resources, and then any kind of

1261
15:30:17,370 --> 15:30:31,629
Dirk: output. The output is transferred over the transfer Linux somewhere else to your up inside. That, then, is an independent step that comes after, and it can go through the Lg. One network because it's it originates at Fermi L. At that point,

1262
15:30:31,860 --> 15:30:48,299
Dirk: and the same way for the Hpc. Integration that we, the the way we integrate these Hpc resources is is they're connected to Fermi Lab. Everything stays together basically uh with with uh within the Us. And um,

1263
15:30:48,550 --> 15:30:56,320
Dirk: I don't know. I mean, Fernando, if if if you have a contract as as if Cms would have a cloud contact and they would want to do a run

1264
15:30:56,390 --> 15:31:05,890
Dirk: where they basically use all the regions in the world together. Then that's obviously. Then then it becomes a a problem. Because you're you're talking about overlaying Uh:

1265
15:31:06,820 --> 15:31:14,690
Dirk: the global cloud resource. Mix on top of a somewhat partition network infrastructure.

1266
15:31:17,700 --> 15:31:20,260
Dirk: Fernando: What regions are you using right now?

1267
15:31:20,630 --> 15:31:26,110
Dirk: Okay. So it's It's all Europe okay

1268
15:31:28,290 --> 15:31:32,210
Dale Carder: and just domestic to the Us. Um,

1269
15:31:32,900 --> 15:31:35,930
Dale Carder: you know the universities, like the tier, two sites

1270
15:31:36,070 --> 15:31:42,160
Dale Carder: to large degree of separated their You know their Lhc traffic from the rest of their institution traffic.

1271
15:31:42,440 --> 15:31:43,320
If

1272
15:31:43,420 --> 15:31:48,399
Dale Carder: those lines are to get blurred that could have essentially uh impact

1273
15:31:48,560 --> 15:31:55,439
Dale Carder: on the universities, you know, like you can imagine scientific workloads overwhelming. You know the cat videos and streaming lectures

1274
15:31:55,630 --> 15:32:03,819
Dale Carder: right? So it's. It's something to be quite mindful of how the current sort of ecosystem is built, and if you wanted to more fit

1275
15:32:04,130 --> 15:32:07,150
Dale Carder: the communication necessary to do so,

1276
15:32:15,340 --> 15:32:18,480
Dale Carder: So that's that's what I had. I'm happy to

1277
15:32:18,540 --> 15:32:21,630
Dale Carder: answer more questions, or even just

1278
15:32:22,990 --> 15:32:29,649
Enrico Fermi Institute: I had a small question. Yeah, you. You mentioned that the the connectivity to Nsf.

1279
15:32:29,710 --> 15:32:53,440
Enrico Fermi Institute: Uh sites is, uh, I guess, Spotty, maybe. Yeah, I notice how I didn't put that in the slide, but I can. I can read between the lines. Um! So what is so? You know that there's this. There's a facility that's being built up or is built outside of Boston, some acronym, but it's like a green data center type thing um that all of the Boston area

1280
15:32:53,450 --> 15:33:13,260
Enrico Fermi Institute: uh, and something that both Cms and I know Alice's as well as they have some large storage um, some large tape library that uh that we've each bought some part into it. Is this: Uh: on the end of the the better connected. Uh,

1281
15:33:13,630 --> 15:33:21,159
Dale Carder: yeah, it It benefits that. You know it's basically on network for Mit.

1282
15:33:21,440 --> 15:33:35,470
Dale Carder: So all right, So they They're facilitating a lot of the They're even going to be facilitating. I think it was in the interim the connectivity for uh for net two, which is the atlas uh node there right

1283
15:33:35,830 --> 15:33:50,070
Dale Carder: so I don't know if there's anyone from Mit on that call here, but I think the majority of their stuff is at base lab. It's not an Mp. Pcc. But net. Two does have their their new infrastructure, and their existing infrastructure will be at Mghpcc.

1284
15:33:50,720 --> 15:33:53,170
Dale Carder: And right they have some,

1285
15:33:53,690 --> 15:33:58,469
Dale Carder: you know, magic storage back into my understanding. They're gonna leverage for that.

1286
15:33:58,920 --> 15:34:17,979
Enrico Fermi Institute: Uh, I think that one of the folks uh they have a very large Ibm tape library with Gpfs upfront.

1287
15:34:20,850 --> 15:34:23,289
Dale Carder: So you get another question. Hand up, David.

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David Southwick: Hi, thanks. Um! Maybe This is a naive question. But if you've got in the current scenario of traffic, let's say tunneling through for me. Um! And you're wanting to add

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David Southwick: for whatever uh cloud providers, and they're all at two hundred four hundred gigabit.

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David Southwick: You get a bottleneck when you do that

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Dale Carder: right? So that sort of architecture is fine to a point.

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David Southwick: Okay, thanks. I think I understand.

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Dirk: Maybe to to say something. I mean the what we did with

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Dirk: through Hep Cloud integration. It's not So much tunneling for farming is that you basically keep the problem set contained to

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Dirk: for me plus cloud. And then in a later, in the completely asynchronously of of the first one. It's of how Fermi integrates with the rest of the Lhc. In infrastructure. So you you kind of to tie it together at the storage level. Basically you move some data to Fermi Lab. And then, independently of that, once that data actually sits there.

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Dirk: Then you can schedule work on that data that can run on on cloud sites. And then the network traffic to get that data to the cloud side runs from farming. Basically So they're independent steps. But of course, I mean eventually,

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Dirk: just because you removed the timing, and it's not an immediate tunnel it's. Still, you still have to get that to keep these resources fed at at cloud, and also at Hbc. Side. So eventually, as as the integrated capacity you want to, you want to feed in terms of computing

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Dirk: it goes up. You you kind of you have to also work, on the other hand, to basically keep the pipeline full of things to work on.

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Enrico Fermi Institute: So so with that with that connectivity, or with the connectivity that's in place today with that model that the Fermi lab

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Enrico Fermi Institute: used or is using, I mean, would that be able to take advantage of of all that physical connectivity? I mean the thing i'm kind of struggling with is, how do we? How do we go from, You know? Yes, that has all this great physical connectivity to clouds. Uh to You know. How do we take advantage of that? And a meeting full way.

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Enrico Fermi Institute: You know what I mean, and and I know a lot of that kind of falls under your bucket of things that are hazy and need to be investigated more. Um, you know. Is it? Is it that you know, like if we were to do this for Alice, should we, you know, mediate all of the data transfer through the tier one and and kind of,

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Enrico Fermi Institute: I guess orthogonalize the problem kind of like how formula it has right where you have

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Enrico Fermi Institute: connectivity from from cloud to to national lab as one bit, and then national lab to

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Dale Carder: right. So you've got that, I mean, that's the class of solutions. Right? That's the solution space. If you want to work within those confines. If I are, you know, a program officer at uh doe or Nsf. I would say,

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Dale Carder: Why do you need to do that? What are the other barriers that exist?

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Dale Carder: Tackle those as well? Because some of these are social, political,

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Enrico Fermi Institute: alright. So it's sort of just where do you want to? I mean, of course, our goal is to, you know, have something to to say in the report, right? And so what what recommendation should we make right that that people go

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Dale Carder: right? So on that front, on one thing that basically came out of this community. Um, if you want to back way up, was the current um

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Dale Carder: grant system at Nsf. Has through the what's now the Cc star uh program that facilitates campus uh and regional upgrades basically manifested from the Yes net science Team Z model. And then, asf uh community buying in that is the

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Dale Carder: an an architectural model that they should provide, you know, financial support, for if you could extend upon that and say, You know, if you can imagine a world where you could seamlessly take advantage of resources, no matter where they lie. What would you need?

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Dale Carder: Couldn't us that program evolve, or again facilitate that kind of uh, you know,

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Dale Carder: connectivity,

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Dale Carder: you know. And in the time scale where it's talking about that's not unreasonable.

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Enrico Fermi Institute: Okay,

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Enrico Fermi Institute: were there other questions for Dale.

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Enrico Fermi Institute: Okay? Well, thanks a lot, Dale. I think this is a really interesting discussion.

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Dale Carder: Yeah, um. And i'll stick around um for the rest of the conference, too. So more stuff comes up. Um,

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Enrico Fermi Institute: yeah, that'd be great.

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Enrico Fermi Institute: All right. I will try to go back to the

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Enrico Fermi Institute: sharing the slides over here.