CERN: So welcome to the future of avs.
CERN: And you see the ten minutes.
All right.
I get the request to. Also,
CERN: we see me a great Us. Air face.
Okay,
CERN: I I Yes, we wait a couple of minutes
Ben Morrice: just on nine o'clock. But um, the participant list is is
Ben Morrice: yeah, a little bit short, so let's give it a few minutes.
CERN: I see the people they are joining as we speak. So,
but for increase
it is a comment.
Ben Morrice: So we get started. Uh, this is going to be recorded, anyway. So it's.
CERN: Yeah,
Ben Morrice: thanks. So thank you for coming today, and I apologize for the the change of the time Slot. Originally we had this um book for ten Am. But we have a a it department head meeting at ten, so we had to move this one forward,
Ben Morrice: and originally Tomato Levi was going to present a topic from
Ben Morrice: uh from his side of things and in
Ben Morrice: the department, but he's not available today, so he'll do his presentation at a later date,
Ben Morrice: but effectively the agenda today will be as usual. I go for a quick evolution of the usage of Linux distributions. At some we'll go for the survey results, which is what we um we sent with the original invitation to this presentation.
Ben Morrice: We'll talk a little bit about Cc. Seven,
Ben Morrice: and then move on to talking about um experiences with central stream,
Ben Morrice: and then we'll open up the the meeting to a more like a discussion point.
Ben Morrice: So with this graph you can see the uh, the supported operating systems at son over the past twelve months. I apologize for the font size on the X and y axes. Uh, hopefully, you can read them if you've got a large enough monitor.
Ben Morrice: Um! But this graph is difficult to read because of the
Ben Morrice: system, Count of Cc. Seven. It sort of dwarfs everything else. So this graph is a little bit easier to read if we exclude Cc. Seven,
Ben Morrice: and you can see basically two trends here which is around uh May of this year we started to see an uptake in Red Hat enterprise. Linux
Ben Morrice: so both our all all distributions, seven, eight, and nine started to see uh increase numbers,
Ben Morrice: and the other trend is that central stream, eight and nine, is uh continuing to grow at a slow but steady rate.
Ben Morrice: Of course this information is just by collating information from um unique Ip addresses from Linuxoft.
Ben Morrice: So if you've mirrored content uh and you don't use Linux for for your hosts. Then they're not going to be reflected in in this in this uh graph, but
Ben Morrice: from the Linux it team. This is this is the best we can do to show a snapshot of what is being used in the organization.
Ben Morrice: So we asked them in this survey two questions, and the first question was
Ben Morrice: effectively. What Linux distributions do you currently use? And the number of of hosts and I wasn't really concerned or interested in? If you're running a thousand hosts or one hundred hosts. I wanted to see the the difference between the the the distributions, and I've I've graphed that with this graph here,
Ben Morrice: so you can see on the it side. If you look at the very first bar, it's all of the uh hosts in the data center, all of the Linux host and the data center,
Ben Morrice: and the proportion of Cc. Seven is almost ninety percent,
Ben Morrice: and the remainder is well. The The next largest uh contender is central stream eight, and then we've got a bit of stream nine and very few redhead Enterprise Linux hosts.
Ben Morrice: That's also reflected in some of the individual. It teams. So in the set team, and then the Linux team. For instance, we have the majority of our systems running stream eight
Ben Morrice: um, but generally sixty-seven is still the the most common distribution.
Ben Morrice: That's also the case for the experiment side with effectively all participants stating that Um. Cc. Seven was used primarily, with the exception of Lsflp, where they were using um central stream eight.
Ben Morrice: The second question was, What do you think your upgrade pass will be from from whatever you're using today? Cc. Seven to
Ben Morrice: the next operating system, and the results here were quite clear that most people said either central stream, nine or real nine
Ben Morrice: so effectively jumping the the eight family from seven to nine. Well, it was mentioned. In some cases this is primarily um uses, or or systems that were tied to a a vendor, which was only certifying support uh of their product on rel eight.
Ben Morrice: So if we now talk about Cc. Seven uh. We've mentioned this previously in a Linux future committee about what might happen. I can now say that this is what will happen. Um!
Ben Morrice: At the time it it's at um sixty seven's end of life, which is mid twenty, four, which is in the middle of Run three.
Ben Morrice: Um. We will start, we being it will start rebuilding the Red hat enterprise, Linux extended life, cycle, support, product,
Ben Morrice: and that will effectively extend the life cycle of sixty-seven for two years. So it will take a strong mid twenty-four to twenty-six, and that will get us through run three and into long shut down three.
Ben Morrice: So this work was initially an initiative for the Ats. It um collaboration is now being fully approved by management on both sides. There's a edms document which details um the full agreement.
Ben Morrice: Um, but effectively it's it's responsibility will be providing this uh add on for a separate repository on Linux soft. So it won't be adding these new packages to the standard. Sixty-seven um
Ben Morrice: urls. This will be an add on. So it will have to be like opt-in for for those that are interested,
Ben Morrice: and it's really just basic functionality after that point. So
Ben Morrice: we'll ensure that some get key tab, and the covers infrastructure. Uh will continue to operate on These um extended support hosts,
Ben Morrice: but all other infrastructure that's tied to Cc. Seven
Ben Morrice: we'll start to to.
Ben Morrice: They wound down from the end of life of Cc. Seven in mid, twenty, four.
Ben Morrice: If we continue talking about Cc. Seven. I just wanted to highlight uh an upcoming change to the really cycle of Cc. Seven.
Ben Morrice: Um. Historically, ever since we had this this internal release of Cc. Seven we would take packages from upstream, being sent to us
Ben Morrice: and releasing them into a testing repository on a on a daily basis,
Ben Morrice: and then once a week we'll promote those packages from testing into production.
Ben Morrice: But there was never any logic to determine how long a package had been in testing, so we could have packages arriving on Tuesday, and then the production run which runs on Thursdays would run, and it would promote those packages from Tuesday straight away into production,
Ben Morrice: meaning that those those packages, in effect, were only in testing for two days.
Ben Morrice: So we're going to tweak that logic a little bit, so that nothing will be promoted into production until it's been sitting in testing for at least a week,
Ben Morrice: and that will happen on the first of December
Ben Morrice: This year. We we don't expect any changes really um from from consumers of this content. But what this really does is it? It improves the Q. A. Of Cc. Seven, because it ensures that everything is is spending enough time and testing,
Ben Morrice: and it it uh it means that the Cc. Seven release is then more uh in line with what we do with central Stream, and uh send us from eight to nine.
Ben Morrice: So talking about central stream now. Um! What are our experiences
Ben Morrice: we have both of these operating systems picture complete within the same environment.
Ben Morrice: We can see from the evolution graph that the general uptake has been slow, but it is increasing.
Ben Morrice: We have encountered several bugs that have only been present in stream.
Ben Morrice: Most users have not been exposed to these, because we have this. The gating process with releasing content into testing, and it sits there for at least a week.
Ben Morrice: We can um.
Ben Morrice: We can capture the the issues before they promoted to production, and we can control those those individual uh package concerns.
Ben Morrice: But that being said, we have had, uh several situations where we have had to intervene and prevent certain packages from being promoted to production
Ben Morrice: back in two thousand and twenty one. When we were talking about um using stream and production,
Ben Morrice: there were some music communities at Cern, and also in the wider Hep community that expressed concerns about using stream in a production setting,
Ben Morrice: and that feeling has also been recently expressed by some it groups
Ben Morrice: those It groups have started a lot of discussion within it about whether this is still the right approach. So we're we're now evaluating our original recommendation
Ben Morrice: of using stream as the default operating system. So, as I said, a lot of discussions have been taking place in the last, let's say, six weeks,
Ben Morrice: and we have a hepics presentation uh next week. On Monday
Ben Morrice: we'll be presenting effectively the same content that I'm presenting now. But we are already working with family lab, and we encourage um more feedback from the Hep community as to what other sites are doing, and what they think is the right path.
Ben Morrice: So what could the right path be? Uh? We see several options so first could be to recommend using rail exclusively at zone.
Ben Morrice: We have a site license, so why not use it?
Ben Morrice: But
Ben Morrice: all of us uh many other hip sites, and not this lucky? So this is probably an unlikely uh situation to to recommend
Ben Morrice: another option could be using a red hat, enterprise, Linux clone, or rebuild, such as Alma Linux or rocky, Linux which one I don't know.
Ben Morrice: In this case we could optimize a little bit of the cost of the the real side license for systems at Zoom.
Ben Morrice: Oh, sorry we would not optimize the the the side license. We wouldn't be using it effectively, but at least the the heb sites could profit.
Ben Morrice: The third option could be doing a a mix of both. So
Ben Morrice: using rail for maybe most cases at zone, but for um services that had at a uh, an interaction or an agreement with other Hep sites or Wcg. Communities, they could use a real rebuild, and therefore be completely compatible with those Um.
Ben Morrice: The external sense,
Ben Morrice: of course, if any of these options were to happen, we would start to decommission center stream. So we need to work with the existing uh community that are using central stream and come up with a a accurate timeline for decommission.
Ben Morrice: And it's also worth mentioning that all of this is is just discussions at this point, so we could still continue to use stream, so
Ben Morrice: just to let you know that nothing is is set in stone here.
Ben Morrice: But if we talk about timelines, we we want to stop talking about this. We want to move on and come to a decision as soon as possible.
Ben Morrice: We're doing quite a lot of work internally, and we really are looking forward to the discussions that we'll have at Hippo next week
Ben Morrice: to to gather feedback from from hep communities.
Ben Morrice: If anything does change, it will be announced first through a a future Linux feature committee meeting,
Ben Morrice: and we ask that
Ben Morrice: in the time being, if if you're in the process of thinking about deploying new systems. Uh, but you have the possibility to to hold off a little bit. We'll currently recommend to pull the deployment of central stream until we we come to a a full decision as to if we're going to continue with center stream or not
Ben Morrice: so to quickly recap sixty-seven is available until it's original end of life, which is mid twenty-four. Um. Those uses that require to run sixty, seven uh through the duration of run three
Ben Morrice: can use the extended lifecycle support products. It should take you to mid twenty, six
Ben Morrice: real aid is available. The current cern contracts will terminate at the end of life. Point of rel. Eight
Ben Morrice: rail nine can also be used under the same contracts.
Ben Morrice: However, if you were wanting to use real nine for its full end of life. We would need to have a contract renegotiation with red hat to extend that. So this is part of the discussions that we're we're currently um including with this this potential recommendation Change
Ben Morrice: So yes, the the key focus, or the key message from this Um Lc. Is that the default recommendation of using stream is currently being reevaluated.
Ben Morrice: So that is the end of my quick presentation here. I wanted to use the rest of the time that we have allocated for this time slot to really ask ten days. Um!
Ben Morrice: If the the options that we present here,
Ben Morrice: if there's potentially an option that's missing, that we haven't thought of,
Ben Morrice: and for those users that are using central stream, um
Ben Morrice: would moving away from Central Stream, be a a a big change, Could you? Would it be a problem for you to move to one of these options.
Ben Morrice: And uh, if if not, what would be a an accurate timeline for an in your specific use case. So i'm going to stop talking now, and I think we can. We can open the floor to to questions.
CERN: Okay, thank you very much, man. So I see that we already have a question. It's a Dario that has reason his hand, so please that you go ahead.
Dario Barberis: I have the feeling. I have seen something very similar, maybe the same slides two years ago when we started this Forum
Dario Barberis: uh.
Dario Barberis: So the clock has come back
Dario Barberis: to where we started, so to where the team started. In fact.
Dario Barberis: Uh, maybe you can. You spend a little bit more on the problems that were found which into a stream that. Uh
Dario Barberis: prompted this rethinking.
Ben Morrice: So just to comment on your your statement before that we've we've talked about this before, and you're you're correct. I This is all deja vu for me. Um!
Ben Morrice: We. We came to the conclusion that the time that that we could try stream we will see how it goes. It was a logical progression from um
Ben Morrice: from the the demise of the central Linux project to to move to the the the same product from the same family. So, this being central stream
Ben Morrice: in terms of the problems, I have a backup slide. Um. This details some of the the issues that we've encountered in in the last few months
Ben Morrice: which the vast majority happened only on on central stream. They they would not, uh in in the real product. So there's there's links here to all of these, if you want to look up the the details. These are mostly external. Um bugsilla reports Uh, some of these were raised by send them ourselves.
Ben Morrice: So we caught these in now
Ben Morrice: in our testing phase, and these issues were not uh promoted to production. But there are some uh users in it that uh,
Ben Morrice: I think that we we in a way, spending too much time doing uh red hat work for them, and that would be then it just a a a better use of of time and resources to to use um
Ben Morrice: red hat or a red hat clone, so
Ben Morrice: that I think that is the the answer to your question.
Dario Barberis: Oh, okay, thank you. Well, of course we don't have information about the cost of licenses and all this other
Dario Barberis: that can be evaluated together with it. But uh
Dario Barberis: yeah, it looks like time is getting short.
Ben Morrice: Yeah,
Dario Barberis: okay,
Diana Scannicchio: uh, yes, um again from Atlas. Uh still on slide twelve, but I didn't get the the difference between the option and in particular how
Diana Scannicchio: we can support the site outside the that does not have a uh that uh
Diana Scannicchio: license
Diana Scannicchio: the main topic.
Ben Morrice: So that that's why I stated that option one would probably not be realistic. Because if if all of son recommends to use red at enterprise. Linux then that doesn't pain a good message for the Hep community. That's basically saying that
Ben Morrice: we're using. Well, you guys sort you sort out your own thing and try and get real, but realistically, that's not going to work.
Ben Morrice: So option two and option three could work, because if so, we were to use a an enterprise Linux rebuild which would be accessible uh, by anyone element Linux or rocky Linux
Ben Morrice: that could work, and the third option would be the hybrid approach. So some services using Red hat enterprise Linux internally at zone, but maybe externally facing services or services that have a large collaboration with other sites could use that same
Ben Morrice: enterprise Linux, rebuild of Alma Linux, or Rocky, Linux,
Diana Scannicchio: all my Linux,
Diana Scannicchio: and to move on that direction because that has really support one operating system, not to
Ben Morrice: Well, as I said, nothing has been decided at this point, so that we, the current recommendation, is still officially to use central stream.
Ben Morrice: Um!
Ben Morrice: And we agree we we we wouldn't be supporting both Alma Linux and Rocky Linux internally at zone. So if we were to use a an enterprise Linux rebuild, we would converge on on one and and support just that uh distribution.
Diana Scannicchio: Okay, then. Now the timeline, as you were mentioning, is very important, because it's quite a tight now.
Ben Morrice: Yes, I understand.
Ben Morrice: We, as I mentioned in the in the timeline slide that
Ben Morrice: we're having epics next week. Uh, there's already been a lot of discussion that's taking place internally within it, and we hope to finalize and converge on a decision uh as soon as possible.
CERN: Thank you
CERN: because it's something that we also.
Ben Morrice: Yes,
CERN: Okay. So I see that your Highness also has a question. Please go ahead, your Highness
Johannes Elmsheuser: right? Another person from our plus um right? So triggered by your your question before right? So Gcp: So Google um provides, for example, um rocky Linux um images there right
Johannes Elmsheuser: erez Agmoni, and so we can build so rocky Linux nine right? So as an alternative to a send us, or at the enterprise nine, one, one
Johannes Elmsheuser: um, and we. We can use that, for example, for Atlas software there, right? I mean it's more or less The The clone, as you said from that had nine and very similar to send to a stream nine. So in principle, for at last offline software, and that works my question. Um is then,
Johannes Elmsheuser: erez agmoni, since you said you had that problems with Send us stream nine, or send to a stream in in general, with with security or with with bugs, and so on one hundred and fifty
Johannes Elmsheuser: erez agmoni don't. You expect similar things then from uh rocky, Linux for example or so to say you, You hope that all all these kind of bugs that that appear um are fixed then, uh, more or less by Redhead instead of you right, as you said, two hundred and fifty,
Johannes Elmsheuser: because these things in principle also appear in one or other um inclination also in the redhead clone right it it just then Don't appear um as I am more or less guess it than in the uh rocky Linux part. Right
Johannes Elmsheuser: erez agmoni, or am I missing? Is something you you are, so to say, pushing the work that you are doing, then to Redhead and hope you don't have to maintain it right in in that sense, one hundred and one.
Ben Morrice: So the thing with Central is is new. Developments hit center stream before they uh make it to Red Hat or to to the Red Hat Enterprise Linux product.
Ben Morrice: So it's not fair to say that there's never going to be bugs in Red Hat enterprise, Linux
Ben Morrice: but the the model that red hat is very open about is that uh development happens on center stream.
Ben Morrice: It it gets released in the community. We are a consumers of that product. We find bugs, and in theory, Red hat uh fixes those bugs before they released into red at Enterprise. Linux
Ben Morrice: So that's um. One perception of the stability uh the the stability improvement of red hat, enterprise, Linux or a red hat. Enterprise needs clone because the clones are uh one to one copies of
Ben Morrice: bread at enterprise. So if a bug exists in real. It's going to exist in Rocky that that much is always going to be the same.
Ben Morrice: This list of of bugs that I have on the screen. Here
CERN: The majority of these were were seen in central stream, but it didn't make it into Red Hat Enterprise, Linux
Ben Morrice: with the exception of the the third and second from the bottom. Those also were in rel. So if you, if you look at the the number of bugs here, we can say that there's more that we've seen
Ben Morrice: uh in in stream. But again, it's not a completely fair comparison, because
Ben Morrice: we don't have many red hat enterprise next systems at zone, and we don't actually have a gated release process for real. It's so. So
Ben Morrice: take this as you will, but
Ben Morrice: the theory is that If we were, we're using um red at enterprise next, it would have more testing, because you have the community um fixing bugs for for the central string products, and then Red Hat will have its own uh customer quality assurance as well.
Johannes Elmsheuser: Okay, thanks right. So I mean the the The second part would be, as I said before, in in theory, rocky Linux nine nine would also work for for Atlas offline software. But it has obviously not been tested in thoroughly as we test it now and send us streamline, right? But yeah, I mean, those are very close, Obviously, as we all discuss now to each other.
Yeah,
Ben Morrice: i'll just write one other um amendment to what I just said on this page. We're talking about bugs, but another factor is um security fixes.
Ben Morrice: So there there's no um cve release cycle process like a formal city, really cycle process for central stream
Ben Morrice: with Redhead Enterprise Linux you, you have this. It's very very structured when it when there's a a critical security um vulnerability. Red Hat has a dedicated page, and they update the that that frequently they update the the packages, and then the clones will have a a similar approach. So
Ben Morrice: when you have a a critical security bug, you can be sure when there's a an update released to fix that issue, And that's not currently the case with Central stream.
CERN: Okay,
Marc Dobson: thank you very much. And now we have a question for Mike. Can you go ahead? You had a question before. Okay, Mike, please. Um, Okay, That was first. But i'll take the floor. Um. So from from uh the Cms online side of things. Um,
Marc Dobson: We were intending mainly to use Well, um for our things. Uh, as we move forward, we use uh centos eight still, so not stream uh, mainly because we did not have time to go to screen uh
Marc Dobson: the These are production machines uh taking data. So um, the idea is that those would try and move to row eight uh over over this um winter shut down uh. The idea was to try and move Cc. Seven to well, eight uh for for all the the production systems.
Marc Dobson: Um! And we were considering stream nine uh mainly for development, for uh,
Marc Dobson: and it's free and beyond kind of thing. So um, in order to have a a release which is as as new as possible. Uh for for whatever we want to run for
Marc Dobson: um
Marc Dobson: Now i'm not sure if anyone I didn't. I don't believe that anyone from Cms offline uh on on the call. But um
Marc Dobson: the I know that Cs offline have tried Alma Linux and uh Rocky Linux and they've actually compared uh the builds uh of those and running uh the software uh on those, and on one hundred and one
Marc Dobson: Erez Agmoni rail and on stream, and running one build on the other platforms, and vice versa to check compatibility. And globally, they were happy with the into two hundred
Marc Dobson: compatibility, if you want. So my feeling is that, uh, they would be happy to go to something like I don't know to Rocky Linux without too much hassle uh they probably already have bills for those uh season sitting around anyway.
Marc Dobson: Um!
Marc Dobson: So from the online point of view. I think I I understand the the reasons for
Marc Dobson: dropping
Marc Dobson: potentially dropping stream. Um, I think uh
Marc Dobson: going, as you said, going for Red Hat only, uh doesn't give a good message to to the heck community. Uh, and that was the reason why we were thinking of using nine for development, so that people could could get their experience with. With that, even if in production we may
Marc Dobson: might want to run well to to have something that's a bit more stable, but of course around Clone would also do do the trick. I don't think we have any
Marc Dobson: strong feeling about sticking to rail, for, of course, as you said, well maybe needed for certain things like Uh oracle and other things where we
Marc Dobson: compatibility. That's approved by them,
Marc Dobson: if you want, even if it could run on the others,
Marc Dobson: so that would be from from our side now. Timing um, I think I I I joined Vienna here. Uh, we. We need to be very careful of the timing. Um, having these kind of changes well
Marc Dobson: thought of announced now is is a little, is is late for doing anything during this winter shutdown, because people would have to get ready. And and we've we've basically wasted the time for this room to shut down. Um. So
Marc Dobson: if we are gonna decide to jump ship. Uh, I think we need to decide as soon as possible so that it could be use. We could use the time in the next into shutdown, which is, uh twenty, three, twenty-four, which is a bit longer as well uh to actually uh actually be able to to
Marc Dobson: potentially jump, jump ship as well, or in the online systems.
Marc Dobson: So yeah, we need we need information as soon as possible. Um. Otherwise it's going to be late.
Ben Morrice: Okay, alright. Thank you for your feedback. There. Um, I I take on board the the the the timeline uh issue. I'll. I'll try and relay that up the chain, so to speak.
Marc Dobson: Yeah, Thanks.
CERN: Okay. Thank you very much. Give an opportunity to the people that are in the room. So again you have a question. Yeah, just a clarification place you extended Cc: support. Is that a hard deadline in terms of calendar? Or is it end of run three? Whenever that is, plus six months
Ben Morrice: uh it. It's a hard deadline, because we're just rebuilding the upstream. Well, in this case the Red Hat enterprise, Linux commercial upstream, product, and that is um
Ben Morrice: as a fixed end of life. Of the thirtieth of June the twenty sixth
CERN: and a follow up question. Would you support puppet on these things, and what are they? The kind of What is the procedure for getting into the Ats? It? Agreement for non ats services
Ben Morrice: in terms of of what's been discussed here. Puppet is is not included in in the scope, so
Ben Morrice: within the the data center in it will puppet will start to to be wound down for for seven in um June of twenty four
Ben Morrice: as in how to to get on board or involved in in this community. Um, i'm not really sure it's. It's an agreement between
Ben Morrice: uh Ats management and it management. So I I guess you'd have to go up the it management food chain to
CERN: to speak to and rak here, I guess in the end I guess the way to go is that whatever that community resides to go to the corresponding engagement meeting, you know. Correct? Yes, I i'm mostly about commercial products. That haven't been certified yet on on eight, for instance.
Zach Marshall: Thanks very much. Um. So I've one comment and one question. The The comment is similar to what Dario let with, and what a few others have said. This This feels a little bit like
Zach Marshall: going backwards like you know. There was this open process that tried to make a decision, and then certainly he went away and said, Oops, we we're not sure we made the right decision here, after all this time studying the options. Um
Zach Marshall: fine.
Zach Marshall: We're gonna have to make a decision similar to this again in five years during the next long shut down, because, you know, some of nine stream, and all the nine variants are not going to last into run for. So I hope that the experience is very carefully recorded.
Zach Marshall: Um. So that if different people are around in five years,
Zach Marshall: we don't just repeat the same studies, mistakes, decisions, uh reversions, and so on.
Zach Marshall: Um, The question is, you? You mentioned the separate Cb process for security vulnerabilities, and I have to assume that this one week delay process isn't going to apply to zero days and things like that.
Zach Marshall: Um! But maybe you can say either. Yes, that's true. We will patch zero days as quickly as possible or no. In fact, we we do intend to hold hold off on those patches for a week
Zach Marshall: uh and how you're gonna draw the line on security patches. Uh for for broad deployment, holding versus deploying as quickly as possible.
Ben Morrice: Sure. So just to comment on your statement of before about um I not making the same mistakes in in the future. That's part of the reason why we we started this this committee in the first place, and also why we record all of these sessions, so that there's a history of what was discussed,
Ben Morrice: and if we need to go back to what was said five years ago. We have that opportunity
Ben Morrice: in terms of um zero day vulnerabilities. We we we take um
Ben Morrice: guidance from the It Security team, so we have the ability to to promote um packages
Ben Morrice: more rapidly if required, so they don't necessarily need to take uh to stay in testing for a week, if it's deemed as as absolutely critical that we need to get it out onto
Ben Morrice: the the distribution network as soon as possible. So we're not. We're not tied. If if if security says that we we need to get this out.
Zach Marshall: Okay, thanks very much. And I I i'm sympathetic to the recordings. But having tried to watch old recordings of meetings, and to say documents are very frequently better
Ben Morrice: sure. Well, we also do have a transcript and meeting minutes. But yes, I understand
Dario Barberis: which. I assume that uh uh, versions of this, with the same number uh will be,
Dario Barberis: and even with similar numbers. Uh, we, we can run uh still. Soc: six payload and uh containers that run on Cc-seven, and
Dario Barberis: at nine eight I don't know. But okay.
Dario Barberis: So I I assume that uh
Dario Barberis: a larger external sites will take their own decision. In any case
Dario Barberis: I will do, most likely,
Dario Barberis: uh, more than just the experiments themselves.
Dario Barberis: Uh, as users, uh, are they?
Ben Morrice: Yes, they are um there. This This information has been discussed previously with the Wcg. Um Good Deployment board,
Ben Morrice: and the previous um decision which was made, and
Ben Morrice: November of last year, if I remember correctly, was that
Ben Morrice: redhead enterprise, Linux clones and stream will be considered as equal amongst um the in in regards to the deployment of software on on the grid.
Ben Morrice: So that's that's already like a
Ben Morrice: uh, something that's been. That's been a great
Dario Barberis: okay. But this would have to be to be true also for rocky arm or whatever else. Yes, that's right. It the the the the clients, the rebuilds, are included in that definition.
CERN: Yeah,
Wojciech Bialas: yes, yes, thank you very much. Um. Um. I have a question, in fact, because when we i'm representing community which is doing a micro trying design. We are we on center Seven
Wojciech Bialas: um Majority of the media vendors would not let us go on center stream uh, and the usual. Now, since the since the change of the red hut. Uh they support only that hat, and they are not going even beyond the Red Hat Eight.
Wojciech Bialas: And now not even all the tools are supported yet on one hundred and eight.
Wojciech Bialas: Um. So I have a question, because we are not only here at some, but we have collaborating sites
Wojciech Bialas: uh which uh, let's say, also running these uh commercial tools. And uh, in some cases they have access to record in some cases. Not um. So when we concentrate on on what we call the red hat, the reboots, which is, uh the most popular, is online and rocky. Do you have already a feeling uh which one of it
Wojciech Bialas: would win
Wojciech Bialas: If you would have been, it would be winning. I mean what is Let's say, um your your educated. Guess
Ben Morrice: I don't know if I want to say that when I recorded um you can take, We can take it offline
Ben Morrice: these two distributions. Uh, in the event that we would turn would would go down this path. So yeah, feel free to message me offline. Okay, Thank you very much.
CERN: Okay,
CERN: uh, let's move on now. Uh, Mark, you have another question.
Marc Dobson: Yes, uh
Marc Dobson: two two things I wanted to pick up on what Young was saying about Cc. Seven Um. So the I I understand the agreement was was found with the Ats on on this need. Uh,
Marc Dobson: but that's also because the uh ats versus it. Meetings started much earlier than the It versus experiment meetings, which are only just getting off the ground now.
Marc Dobson: But I would like to remind the community that in this meeting. In the past
Marc Dobson: experiments have expressed the need for keeping seven
Marc Dobson: in exactly the same way as the accelerator sector. So we, I would really encourage the people who are leading this these meetings to feed that back up to management.
Marc Dobson: I I don't believe it's because this, these, these, these, the expression of this need was done in this group way before even the Ats questions it's meetings were set up
Marc Dobson: that we should go back individually as experiments, and say, Yes, we are also interested. I I believe it. It is up to you guys who are leading this group to go back to it management and say
Marc Dobson: the Ats sector is not the only one. The experiments are also interested because some of the things cannot be moved before the end of run three.
Marc Dobson: Um! So I I would really really encourage you to do that.
Marc Dobson: Um! It has much more weight coming from you, expressing the view of multiple people than individuals going via the experiment representatives to it
Marc Dobson: in addition in addition. But I think because this this uh expression of interest was done way before the decision. Uh with the it sector. I think it should be done by this forum as well.
CERN: Yeah, I fully agree with you, Mark.
Ben Morrice: I also agree, and I have personally, uh escalated this this topic in the past, but I will uh escalate it again on your behalf.
Marc Dobson: Thank you very much. Yeah. So that was one point. Um. The second point was when looking at all my limits and rocky Linux uh, we should bear in mind that at least for the online systems a our sixty-four support
Marc Dobson: is a must.
Ben Morrice: Yeah, I I Sixty four is is supported um by both. That's that's not an issue.
Marc Dobson: Right? Okay, Thank you very much.
CERN: Okay? Then the next question is from Diana. Please go ahead.
Diana Scannicchio: Yeah, Thank you. Uh. So first of all, I would like to second the mark, so I will share the same opinion. So
Diana Scannicchio: uh,
Diana Scannicchio: again to discuss out to the importance of Center Seven, and then I apologize to come back on this, But the time line for me, and my team is very important just to to give you some details. We started
Diana Scannicchio: early next summer, and the at last, during the next winter shut down. So two thousand three hundred and twenty, four
Diana Scannicchio: of
CERN: okay.
CERN: Here we are with four people.
Ben Morrice: No, I think I've spoken enough.
CERN: Okay. So then, uh, I think we can close the meeting. Thank you very much for coming, and uh, once we get the the recording and the transcript ready, we'll upload it into the equivalent, and and that's it
CERN: on Monday.
Ben Morrice: Uh no, they won't as we have not made a decision on um on on the content that's been discussed here. Um, there won't be
Ben Morrice: a an I Tom Slide.
Ben Morrice: But
Ben Morrice: when a decision has been made, obviously that will be announced through through it,
CERN: could you? Can I encourage you to put in at least the place All this this is into a stream. Recommendation currently is on hold, and we're reevaluating. So it doesn't need to be a full slide. Just a bullet point to make all the users aware of this in a timely fashion.
CERN: I mean to put your this slide, I would say it's a good. The info user which are not in this meeting.
Ben Morrice: I agree, and I did have slides. Um earmarked for for item, which explained in in a a a more condensed fashion about what I've I've listed here, but the the I time organizers uh
Ben Morrice: discussed with me that they, I think it would be best to to not um talk about things that have not been completely decided.
Ben Morrice: So
CERN: on the I would discuss with Michael.
CERN: Okay, Is that okay? Is that the agreement kind of
Ben Morrice: as of yesterday? That was the agreement I had with Michael. But i'm happy to go to to to go back to him and and express the concerns raised from here.
Ben Morrice: And if we can come to a A. A further agreement,
Zach Marshall: since since you said, during the presentation explicitly, that we should probably hold off on for the migration to send us nine or work on migration to send us nine until this decision is made. I think it would be really good to communicate that to the broader community.
Ben Morrice: I agree.
CERN: Okay,
CERN: So
CERN: I think there is nothing to there,
CERN: and that's it. So thank you for coming Bye, bye.
Ben Morrice: Thank you, bye, bye.
Diana Scannicchio: Thank you.