WH11NE- Sunrise: Don't tell people a few things.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So recording is happening. Alright, so let's get started. So some of us have been at it for decades trying to look for some you collided to the but in the meantime event, and that the PP. Machine
WH11NE- Sunrise: and then back to thinking about future providers for that. We'll be doing edit for decades for us to send
WH11NE- Sunrise: and me for all little, I guess. And few years ago. Okay, now, 2 years right.
WH11NE- Sunrise: 2 a year of small small mass, beginning 2,021. So the and I and 2 people started talking about future colliders, and they said got it in something, and then beyond, Collidal in particular, came up to the front, and then they came out. In the meantime there was a formula
WH11NE- Sunrise: to provide this group that they have been leading, and they have lots of snow. Last things.
WH11NE- Sunrise: I think it's time for everybody to get working on it.
WH11NE- Sunrise: For some reason we all decided to say that
WH11NE- Sunrise: they could do that as part of the Lpc. So now this is going to be an event for everybody, not just the Cms group here.
So
WH11NE- Sunrise: that's that. So first of the events this today, and Kerry, who
WH11NE- Sunrise: you, as a super professor who have a chance of seeing this machine to actually come to cruise, will tell us about beyond providers. And, more importantly, we also want to recruit
WH11NE- Sunrise: undergraduate students to work on it so that they'll actually be able to do something that the neon client will send themselves to. We were just talking about next to CC. Bar. Maybe we will measure it for the first time. That's good. So, Kerry, let's get started and
WH11NE- Sunrise: thank you for the introduction.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yes, so I don't know if you guys saw me outside of the crossover, but I just finished this slide. So some Prime Minister you appreciate it, and also some help, because I
WH11NE- Sunrise: I think I say this anytime I talk to anyone about, which is that i'm actually not an expert. This is all new to me. And so i'm learning as you're working.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And yeah, we can
WH11NE- Sunrise: go back and forth when I make mistakes, because they inevitably we'll have them. Okay, Are you okay? With the format of people asking questions. So you got it. So whenever you feel like asking questions, you can, and we have plenty of time out there. So the layer part can be sure.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Okay, Great, let's get started. So I kind of break this up into a couple of the first is why we need a new monitor.
WH11NE- Sunrise: The second is why we should collide nuance of all of the particles. And then the third talks about the challenges of, because they have a short lifetime.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and then the last part touches on some of the challenges
WH11NE- Sunrise: in terms of building an experiment at a new one. Collider. Okay.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So why do we need any glider. I think this is probably the biggest challenge for the energy for this year in terms of articulating our we needed a fighter for collectors to do 5.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So i'm gonna try and do my best to make the case. And actually, I think you talk from everybody about what they what they like and what they disagree with is really helpful, because we all need to read the space to everybody.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So when I think about open questions and particle physics, I kind of put. I can't put these questions into your categories. So the first since we discovered the H expos on we're starting to characterize it.
WH11NE- Sunrise: But it's the news particle we have in the center model. It's the weirdest one that we have.
WH11NE- Sunrise: We need to study it more. and there are a lot of other questions around me. The second I kind of think of us. Okay. We know that there is dark matter out there in the universe. You know it's very likely to be part of. Why haven't we seen it yet? Why Don't? We know what it is.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and then the third you can kind of classify as the unknown. So this could be the unknown. But this could also be other problems or questions that we have about the universe in theory, and we Don't have very well defined solutions for solving them.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and so my claim that i'm going to try to make to you is that it's impossible to totally address
WH11NE- Sunrise: these open questions in particle physics without controlled experiments at a future collider.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And so, starting with the Higgs as an example.
WH11NE- Sunrise: I mentioned that we've saved the Higgs. We've started to study it, but
WH11NE- Sunrise: a lot of questions still around it. So, for instance, does it focus on couple to dram matter or to a dark sector? Does they think it was on play any role in track party violation, and
WH11NE- Sunrise: does it have something to do with the origin of flavor, is it? Or they're more than one use goes so. Is it fundamental or a composite particle? What does the
WH11NE- Sunrise: Is it mass, natural, or is it not? Especially. I think we should face that forever.
WH11NE- Sunrise: All relevant questions.
WH11NE- Sunrise: But I think, like in turn to phrase the argument, don't you have to say.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and then maybe this is your next slide, like what what won't, you know at the end of the L. I like that. You would then know from you on client. Because a lot of these things maybe, we answer with the that's exactly my line of thought. So
WH11NE- Sunrise: What if we only had the
WH11NE- Sunrise: I think we'd be plan great.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So we're going to collect 3 inverse. Add one something that so? This is roughly 200 milliondays and 120,000 dive events which are not all clean, and there is a lot of background to deal with a lot of systematics.
WH11NE- Sunrise: so you can kind of still listen to some of the deliverables that we quote in our combined atmosphere. and so I sort of check it from a lot of places. But I think the the most recent one that I found.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So we're going to measure the math to about 125 p plus or minus 200, and we
WH11NE- Sunrise: we're going to measure the with directly, setting some either direct constraints on it which are pretty weak and not near the close of it, that we expect it to be, or we're going to be some model dependent constraints on about 50% of what. And I think there are a lot of assumptions.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Again, a lot of systems that come with this number. If you think about
WH11NE- Sunrise: optimistic scenarios, you'll see constraints, and we're a few percent on the Frenching ratio takes to invisible. We'll measure many of these couplings to other particles on your 2%,
WH11NE- Sunrise: and we'll measure the Higgs. How many are so? 50%, but not have any access to the
WH11NE- Sunrise: and I
WH11NE- Sunrise: I've sort of shown some of the relevant fo where you can get these numbers.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And so the question is, what do these celebrals? How do they not onto what we have to ask about? The
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yes. So
WH11NE- Sunrise: I think the other thing that you might want to add to this argument to some extent is a historical perspective. I can. I've seen, you know what we say. We're going to do and what we actually do.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And and so you know, these are what we say. We're gonna do you? Well, before that we always do better than we say we're gonna do
WH11NE- Sunrise: so I don't know exactly how you
WH11NE- Sunrise: that. And of course, since we're physicists, we're very scared of saying that we might do better.
WH11NE- Sunrise: because yeah. want to be at the 99% conference level.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So yeah, so that would be the other. You know. How good could we be to? Might be something that you could even extract from
WH11NE- Sunrise: what previous that when I, when we say like, oh, we're going to do better than we expect, then you start being into
WH11NE- Sunrise: What can the next factory deliver With respect I agree but that someone might ask you. You know these are.
WH11NE- Sunrise: I would have an answer for it. But in what we say is the expected systematic concerns. It's. We've already factored and doing twice as good as what we have right now. So I think that we should be cautious about
saying that we already.
WH11NE- Sunrise: It's the cake, and we can believe it. Well, the thought that comes to my mind is, you know, what did we say left about how we would do on the C. And how did we actually do? We're even in the tabatron in some measurements. But what did we actually do? No; but I think that we figured that into the experimental outside, and i'm not saying, I bring that up. I'm saying you have a correct pocket.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Oh, yeah, no. But I don't think that it's it's certainly it's certainly
WH11NE- Sunrise: you can compare, for example, what we had, that the Cdr. And what we did for a to let's say Hicks menu was much earlier that we expect it so much less data because of different, and it takes exactly right. So we had a few factors about the summer model.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and we thought of being a 1, 6, one at high moment, 28 people. So
WH11NE- Sunrise: so, and I you know I wouldn't guarantee them at all. I would have it in my back pocket in case some curmudgeon like me asks, you know, and you. You can say this is what you know. Taking previous experiments and extrapolating. This is beyond what we say we could do. This is maybe, where we could get to, and there's still a need.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yes, but then, if we're successful, then
just easily turn the thing off earlier.
WH11NE- Sunrise: We don't do 40% of
WH11NE- Sunrise: maybe maybe you didn't die in the production.
Oh, you need some. You can always wait with the
WH11NE- Sunrise: It's a factor that he goes in the opposite direction, so i'll be i'll be i'll be I'll be the antique. Oh, and I can tell you the you should have produced already a 1,000 in most fact, about, and we are not even at 200.
WH11NE- Sunrise: After 10 years extra
WH11NE- Sunrise: We're supposed to do $150 a year, which we still didn't have him with singly, or at the last day that was promised. I mean, David later, that actually connected.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Let's let's let Carrie can finish her talk, and then you can be commudions. After
that we could just. That was how we started this. Where were you? It's in the recording.
WH11NE- Sunrise: He wasn't there. I like the interruptions. I do think that this
WH11NE- Sunrise: so this question of how much better can you like to do? What is this me for, Hl. To see? We can run it, and what is the
WH11NE- Sunrise: So let's put a PIN in it and come back to it.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Oh, maybe it's an example of how good would this day when you would start to call them if you's factory itself.
WH11NE- Sunrise: I mean.
So
WH11NE- Sunrise: okay. So
WH11NE- Sunrise: i'm skipping a little bit here. But so we we really only analyze all the data from one to we haven't seen any signs of you on the same model physics, even though we're pretty sure that it.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And so to bringing this back to the specific Higgs questions that we were talking about. There's this question is the Higgs map, is it? It's that's natural. So it's a scalar particle.
WH11NE- Sunrise: All of the standard model particles can contribute to how it computers math. And so the question is, if there's nothing between the center model, and all the way up to the next scale of interest upon scale. Why is it mess
WH11NE- Sunrise: not all the way up that high
WH11NE- Sunrise: and
WH11NE- Sunrise: many of the proposed solutions include things like super symmetry, where you have top partners, or someone that cancel a contribution to loops here when you configure it fast. And so when you're thinking about what we're going to discover at the
WH11NE- Sunrise: super symmetry, we'd expected a fixed mass on the order of 170, and then stops around the order of a 200 G. And so we haven't seen that, and the big mass is also suspiciously higher than what we were expecting.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And so if you take these lines of argument and try and say, okay, what should a soft mass or top top progress must be? You start to see masses on your a huge E.
WH11NE- Sunrise: It's. It's from one of these 2, Your you know papers here.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and this is also kind of consistent with the lack of evidence that super symmetric or top from our and so
WH11NE- Sunrise: in terms of experimental evidence and in terms of some theory arguments, this is sort of a first direction towards pointing above the scale.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Okay.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and you can't see her out there. But she wasn't me, and so then and so then a lot of people say, okay, so
WH11NE- Sunrise: typically, we don't have our machines. So the next machine should be using e plus C minus machine. Or maybe we can use precision measurements at the Heisenberg to to try and make indirect constraints
WH11NE- Sunrise: on users except for energies. So you can think about just the Higgs both on potentially couple to higher mass particles that are out of reach. I feel like she or any any customized fire. And does it modify the standard model coupling that we're able to measure.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And so again, you take you could see this from the case so much report
WH11NE- Sunrise: and based on sort of the 2% coupling measurements that we're going to make in the initial Hc. You get history on your computer TV, which is pretty much what we're programming directly.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And then, if you go to the question on my 6 factory, run at 240 G, we get
WH11NE- Sunrise: precision on your point, one which must you about a TV, a few TV. So a little bit about the Lhc. But maybe not as high as we want to go. If we're arguing, and we're taking the fix, the next mass as a guide, and then also can trans from the which is a guide. So
WH11NE- Sunrise: I think an issue you take away. Here is that precision and the or the factory is important and very helpful. But it's definitely not a cure. All on our concrete particles. And so ultimately we will need to directly pro the multi-TV scale.
WH11NE- Sunrise: I'll stop doing
WH11NE- Sunrise: okay. And so not only is that our that argument saying you should wait towards the 10 to the scale we also like. Even if we're not looking for articles, we can come back to another question.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Okay, we we know that it exist. This tells us something that it's our picture of actually symmetry is likely to be correct. But we're actually not characterizing
WH11NE- Sunrise: to process an electric how it happens, and why it hasn't said it all while we're measuring this sort of at the bottom of the potential where we live right now.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And so how can we extrapolate towards the origin of the universe, and towards the end of the universal report stability.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And the best way to do that is by actually measuring the next potential itself. And the way that you can do that is, by measuring the next coupling for itself. So the
WH11NE- Sunrise: And so
WH11NE- Sunrise: at the we've talked about measuring these to about 50, 50% conservative, and not being able to access this at all.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And so, if we talk to Ferris, they will tell us that in order to make constraints on the origin of this building universe, we need to measure the trilogy to about a 10% certainty, and it would be really great if we could also focus at all
WH11NE- Sunrise: doing this isn't possible just because of cross-section for these types of processes, unless you're at a tendency to still collider. So, in terms of looking for new protocols, and in terms of understanding the universe and electricity break in, then we have 2 really concrete reasons for the
WH11NE- Sunrise: And so
WH11NE- Sunrise: just tossing in a bonus before I say, 10 TV is the place to go. We can think about dark matter. And so another. Really, I thought, compelling, including from so much, I think, something we known all along, but was articulated very well with that
WH11NE- Sunrise: complementary approaches are necessary to fully identify dark counter and understand this physics. And so, maybe the connections between astrophysical experiments
WH11NE- Sunrise: has logical observations, and what this means in terms of
WH11NE- Sunrise: potential dark matter models to look for and cross-checking what we see in other experiments, comparing us to
WH11NE- Sunrise: hopefully a direct extension discovery sometimes soon, which would confirm that the particles that we're seeing are actually from across the origin.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And I think this is where we come into play, which is actually producing dark matter out of flight or an accelerator potentially discovering at first, but also being able to pro is interactions in a controlled environment.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And so they have many case studies where
WH11NE- Sunrise: colliders can play a very important role and even potentially make discoveries first. And one of these is for, like minimal, dark matter scenario. So if you want to pro them all the way up to their thermal targets. You really need a 10 TV provider.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and that is the only way to do it. It's it's even better than on the the direct detection experience we're talking about. And that's
WH11NE- Sunrise: okay.
WH11NE- Sunrise: I feel like I might have kind of a look at, so that that contagious cremudgeon book that's going around I like I I really like the argument that you're like the way you put it out, but I feel like wasn't the field making TV scale arguments for the Lhc. For new physics
WH11NE- Sunrise: a couple of decades ago. How do we make sure that we have a counteract that that that argument when people make that.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yeah, I think
WH11NE- Sunrise: showing people that we
WH11NE- Sunrise: like, I I really enjoy it. When people make a screenshot of the things that we were looking for when we turned on. And
WH11NE- Sunrise: this is exactly what we were looking for. It's very clear that nature is not like this
WH11NE- Sunrise: we're continuing to look at the where we haven't seen anything. So there's that our future was wrong, and that's how science works. I would also add that I think
WH11NE- Sunrise: I think that if you just think about the energy scale, the argument that it sounds like we're just making that. That's kind of what I found, but I think I think the nature of the area would be on the energy scale is actually very different.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So I think, and this is especially from what I've I've seen from talking to people who are not in hired to physics, but who, you know, paid attention to the news. What we were promoting new colliders. Ss: the Lhc. What the arguments were.
WH11NE- Sunrise: I think the problem that we have
WH11NE- Sunrise: when people were mo arguing for the Lhc. Is that it was mainly theorists, I mean for the Lhc. And they were mainly arguing that natural. This was absolutely guaranteed like God's principle, the universe, and therefore we would find something.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and we may still we don't know but clearly that could. It was not a a slam dunk, you know, over the Bay lax you found super symmetry kind of thing.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And so I think that had making that argument so barrel for that, like what we're what they're a motivation for us, and I think it said having something that's much broader. You know we're talking about dark matter, which is a much bigger field.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and we're talking about other, you know, potential and resources they're not focusing on. One
WH11NE- Sunrise: makes it much stronger. We do have to to that in a way that right, you know, makes people understand that.
Lindsey Gray: Yeah, I did. And I yeah, I think it's actually substantive to add this. So no in in discussions with Joel and just trying to understand the history behind a lot of this stuff. The 10 TV argument is actually older than the Lhc. It comes from the Ssc.
Okay? Oh, that hurts. You made the argument for the let's see, because we couldn't build this.
WH11NE- Sunrise: I think that's that's one of the benefits to this plot. And why, I like this plot
WH11NE- Sunrise: better in some ways than like the stop plot that you were showing, because color particles that's that's not the argument for me on Collider, right. It's actually
WH11NE- Sunrise: the plot of the extra Higgs Bosons right like the Neutral Natural list
WH11NE- Sunrise: Explanations of a new 200 Geneva scalar.
WH11NE- Sunrise: It could be sitting right under bark noses, and the Lc. Would not be able to find right. We don't even make those plots that they like. See? Because we're not sensitive to that model.
WH11NE- Sunrise: but it fixes naturalness right it fixes. But but these these kind of searches for the models that are not charged under the
WH11NE- Sunrise: either. Our charge under the most difficult center model gauge groups to pro or none.
WH11NE- Sunrise: or some of the best arguments for the. So the going back to the TV scale for for that we're working on. So
WH11NE- Sunrise: it was primarily trying to say that we don't want to fix masses. You said that one camel is a favorite scenario. But that's only one thing of the
WH11NE- Sunrise: the formal, if you just assume that otherwise it would have been anywhere up to a TV, and that's Chris goods the but you know it's about TV. Then, you know.
WH11NE- Sunrise: it was on scattering becomes the large, and that's the reason why. Be sure
WH11NE- Sunrise: always planned the detector so that we are able to to one TV to discover the X, and it turns out to be 1 35 cents a little to 5. But we will actually find for
WH11NE- Sunrise: but being able to find things with 5 or as well, right? So that TV scale argument was much more strong, or in some sense. But it that pan out said it should be like 30. Yeah.
125 is that some of TV it's the other that we didn't find super.
WH11NE- Sunrise: This one is like the hits argument in the sense that you know. if you want, if if but it's not completely clear.
WH11NE- Sunrise: this plot is as compelling as it's.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Oh, yeah, no, it's not content at all, because it's not for them. It
WH11NE- Sunrise: So there's a limit for the hex, you know, and it's the line.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So you want to get to the line on this plot.
WH11NE- Sunrise: The problem is, there's a lot of other plots like this. It's just say, let's introduce the simplest dot method month possible. Right you that as a piplet or a doublet, and see if we can. If we set this by that kind of extension.
WH11NE- Sunrise: can we appropriate or not? But that, of course, nature can be more complicated. But yeah, that
WH11NE- Sunrise: the cool thing about this is that if nature is really so simplistic which it could be right I mean it's not. It's not impossible, then.
WH11NE- Sunrise: that this is the only place you can from?
WH11NE- Sunrise: That's right. But even within the model, right. is there a moving target or something?
WH11NE- Sunrise: The moving
WH11NE- Sunrise: right? Well, it is in the sense that if you make it 30 TV, then they
WH11NE- Sunrise: This is the counterpoint to see this question. You know, we're always more clever. We actually do the analysis. But when we exclude something that the models get more clever
WH11NE- Sunrise: you have. So if you assume that the relatively, if you assume that the relative that is saturated by those particles, and you know that the interaction you know the mass.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So there's no there's one free parameter. It's just that's the maximum, but it's the less fraction of the dark matter.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Let's let's go back, all right. So okay, so it sounds like we are. So this is going to be the
WH11NE- Sunrise: Actually, I would be very. I would be very tend to be. I would be very curious. Can we get a show that you bought the arguments or not?
WH11NE- Sunrise: We're changed there, there, isn't someone famous slide that I can't find right now. But it was given by Professor King Sam T.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And he has a great history of accelerators meant
WH11NE- Sunrise: to to, to to this, and what I really found, and it's very
WH11NE- Sunrise: part of your argument actually is. You know we can AIM for certain things, and we should.
WH11NE- Sunrise: But in fact, it's history. It's shown that people's, you know. I mean the
WH11NE- Sunrise: no sorry
WH11NE- Sunrise: they thought they were going to find the top for much earlier than they did right. This was built by that that work. With what did I think? Put it so? Yeah, it's a it's a
WH11NE- Sunrise: very simple and powerful. Slide.
WH11NE- Sunrise: It's okay. So let's let's buy the argument
WH11NE- Sunrise: for for the sake of moving on that you should build a slide, and that your.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And so I think one of the things from so much was the question, what should we go?
WH11NE- Sunrise: And so shortly we've got to ever larger, and
WH11NE- Sunrise: and at some point this this can't keep working.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Maybe that's just what common sense tells me.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And then the other question is, okay. Well, if I can't go to an infinitely large
WH11NE- Sunrise: How I have to take a risk spending or technology with what what is in your technology, what is out there? And so I'm. I did. I did a whole bunch of that
which is really hard.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and I I walk through kind of the implementation tax for reports
WH11NE- Sunrise: Force report for snow masks, where they sort of work out the total protective costs for future virus. And I would like you to go through this exercise with me.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and
WH11NE- Sunrise: it's like order. Magnitude estimates, but it it's still kind of useful for for getting some intuition. So the toll projected cost in the most simplistic models, breaks down to a couple of contributions. So the first has to do with the size
and still engineering, the dating of the tunnels and all of the construction.
WH11NE- Sunrise: The third term has to do with the accelerator of so like. How fancy are your magnets, and how many of them are
WH11NE- Sunrise: there? And then the third has to do with site, power, infrastructure.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So is your machine energy efficient? Do you need a lot of power to to keep your prior running and to power your
like this.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And so, if if you are I I I feel like i'm gonna crack a joke that's gonna If If you don't care about money, and you care about the environment, like if that's your priority right now, these these 2 things are very correlated. Right? So you don't have to be the cynical person. The only thing about money like you can also think about
WH11NE- Sunrise: making this a useful machine with minimal negative impact on the
WH11NE- Sunrise: Okay. So let's consider some of the possible options that we talked about SMS and walk through a couple of
WH11NE- Sunrise: so so the first.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yes.
yes, yes.
yes.
WH11NE- Sunrise: but I think this does not account for that, and it's like again assuming things sort of operate for 10 to 20 years.
WH11NE- Sunrise: I'm not sure. The third term is not just building our actually building the infrastructure.
WH11NE- Sunrise: your power consumption. Okay. So you so that does go with time.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yeah, it's not the cost to build. This is the cost to operate, since the full like total. No, that's different. You have to be careful so sorry. What is we need to compute? How much better by the words, 1.7 billion
WH11NE- Sunrise: it comes out to be from this point of your annual cost. It's probably 10 years or something that makes you
WH11NE- Sunrise: see inclusive time.
WH11NE- Sunrise: No fires up for you for one year compared to 10 or 10 To
WH11NE- Sunrise: where do we learn that these first 2 terms depend roughly on the square root of the
WH11NE- Sunrise: Okay. But, on the other hand, John, people's will tell you nobody knows how much the Hebrew.
WH11NE- Sunrise: because if they knew we would have never built it. So so the first thing we have to do is and this on to accessing. So I think we all know when you quiet electrons. You're quite a fundamental particles. Your center and energy is exactly place to you.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and you get the collisions. When you find electrons they're composite. So at the 10 TV scale. And you're not like the protons you're accessing like scale, much smaller than that.
WH11NE- Sunrise: You're gliding, of course, influence inside the which only carrier fraction, that is.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and this means that you're probably a wide range of energies. But your collisions are also messy, and you also have a lot of pilots, so trying to map sort of the equivalent energy for each.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Something that you might get is a plot like this, where it maps the center of mass energy and view on Collider, and it's energy reach for an equivalent.
I'm not Proton collider. I probably said that wrong.
WH11NE- Sunrise: But I hope you get it, which, and basically the idea is that if you have
WH11NE- Sunrise: sorry
differences in terms of cross-sections
WH11NE- Sunrise: for, say, intellectual week process versus the process, this, this is sort of your equivalent energy. Right? So a time to you. You're required for intellectual processes pretty similar to about 150 Project proton collider, or is it 15 team?
WH11NE- Sunrise: That would be roughly equivalent to a 100 TV
for something that is produced by the strong interaction?
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yeah, okay.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So that's just to say, okay, these are the the different energies that we would need for our
WH11NE- Sunrise: Okay. So then, the question is.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Let's take our energy, our particles, and figure out what kind of time we need in order to make
WH11NE- Sunrise: our reasonable size there. And so
WH11NE- Sunrise: at the only sheet, for instance, we use low temperature, superconducting dipole to sort of circulate our our protons around the room. And so the strict that we have today you wrote a Tsla. If you look at
WH11NE- Sunrise: you, Google current reference. It's about 15 or 16 as the last magnetic field that we've been able to produce a dipole. and I think this is sort of 2020, Tesla. It's about to.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So if You' to
WH11NE- Sunrise: to follow this formula and not get on to the circumference, I required it to go, for I have a machine or a left Time machine.
WH11NE- Sunrise: You're sort of on the order of a 100 kilometers for and about 10 for a
WH11NE- Sunrise: Okay.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So then.
WH11NE- Sunrise: your electrons are different. So
WH11NE- Sunrise: you need to think about signatron radiation and your power efficiency. So thinking first about signature, radiation
WH11NE- Sunrise: and the and I, we line that chart particles radiate when they're accelerated, and so the energy loss that you can return
WH11NE- Sunrise: for turn around the rain
WH11NE- Sunrise: place to the energy of the
over the next
WH11NE- Sunrise: to the fourth power. So this means that, like particles, we need more. So electrons we need to bunch. And this is the challenge with. whereas for protons there for you on which you have here. This is mostly fine
this.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and so you can see if you take kind of
WH11NE- Sunrise: the some of the the options that we laid out for a proton for me on Collider. The energy loss return is completely reasonable. But if you were to say in the crease. Circumference of any plus and minus the 10 to the plus and minus machine is just impossible if you're just losing too much energy.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And so this would be
WH11NE- Sunrise: of your energy for 50% of your energy per turn.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Tom Tom Roberts has a question.
WH11NE- Sunrise: I guess if you're you're muted. If you're talking
Tom Roberts: unmute. Okay. Finally, the thing you didn't point out is that the synchrotron radiation also has a major effect on the emittance of the beam which you cannot reduce. So
Tom Roberts: so you have to take that into account that that affects the luminosity they severely.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yes, and so this is. This is sort of why, for even then
WH11NE- Sunrise: you plus and minus Collider, you can't. There's one of the reasons why you can't really go.
WH11NE- Sunrise: but it okay. So your so this tells you a little bit about your energy, of your power, efficiency, or your every efficiency.
WH11NE- Sunrise: But there are other things that contribute to the amount of power that you
WH11NE- Sunrise: machine. And so I alluded to your craft systems power and your way of your your You can be it, and things like this. And so this becomes what dominates your headron and the only flyers, but still.
WH11NE- Sunrise: because you need less cryo and less are up.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Your new provider is much more power efficient.
WH11NE- Sunrise: because I haven't done that, and even longer than you. What! What is the lost number for? Left?
It's a.
WH11NE- Sunrise: We do
WH11NE- Sunrise: 200 Jv. And
whatever the the Lxy ring is so 27,
WH11NE- Sunrise: I remember.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yeah. So that was really pushing it that time.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and it if he was at the limit of what they could do right. They even
WH11NE- Sunrise: again predicted they couldn't go quite so far. But then they kept pushing on. Yeah, that's a whole lot. Yeah, but it was almost enough it was full.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Alright, so then, now we have all of the terms that we eat we know roughly our size.
WH11NE- Sunrise: We
WH11NE- Sunrise: so actually here I am accounting for sort of the the magnets that you would need to go into your machine.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and we know our power, consumption, and we can plug it all in, and it's in cost estimates. And so I did this for
WH11NE- Sunrise: our 100 TV, 100 kg
WH11NE- Sunrise: for our 10 TV, 10 or you on quieter an Fc. E or Cpc. Sally plus the minus twitter, and for a quick
WH11NE- Sunrise: for multi-
WH11NE- Sunrise: also hunting for the fact. That actually, you need to register your provider which we will get to.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and I get these rough costs central.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and I compared to some of my estimate and the model
WH11NE- Sunrise: I mean, who isn't, which was made by the same person. And so I think it's pretty clear that electrons we cannot access the 10 to the scale, so the trace comes down to a proto proton or a new.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and
WH11NE- Sunrise: between the smaller footprint the power efficiency and the lower costs. And maybe this is a really promising way to go.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And also, I think, how much larger can we get? What are we going to do? Back, for instance, if you require? I think it's worth it.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And so then I have 2 kind of bonuses, for if we choose to apply new ones in particular, and so I think in many way, it's a meal letter. It's 2 letters in one. And so
WH11NE- Sunrise: I kind of think about this for 2 reasons. The first is that if you think about your production mechanisms. You can have external production where the cross section of properly traffic with this, and then
WH11NE- Sunrise: you can also beck and rows and fusion permission. So a very high energy, high energies. Your new ones are maybe in a W. Or Z. Bosons, and those can collide.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And do you have a lot of actual phone, a lot of really interesting to the differences potential. It's basically the lecture we both on.
WH11NE- Sunrise: which is really nice. If you want to do precision on
WH11NE- Sunrise: to 6. So not only do you get the energy needs to also get which we haven't really thought about, so that's pretty cool.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And then this is My! This is supposed to be my personal motivation.
WH11NE- Sunrise: if you think about timeline
WH11NE- Sunrise: and what what we are most likely to be around for.
WH11NE- Sunrise: I thought this was only a slide you made for your colonel for me.
WH11NE- Sunrise: I don't know why I don't know why in Europe they're I mean, I know why in Europe. They call this a selfish argument, because this is their favorite machine. But just like, think about this. Realistically, the highest is running until about 24, 8,
WH11NE- Sunrise: and we know how much money there is in the world. I mean how long it takes about 10 months. The Fc. E probably won't start so activistically about 20.
WH11NE- Sunrise: It's it. It needs 15 years to run into to make measurements at the very center chiefs, and then there's the technically limited. You have to swap out the accelerator for hetchup wired, and the Fcc. That's first point 5 years in order to collect it will not see it needs.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And so you can think about how old you'll be when you're going to retire, and what you're probably gonna not be around anymore and ask how much physics are you gonna see in your lifetime, and how much you can you participate in? I think it's important because that decides what physics you do for the rest of your life.
WH11NE- Sunrise: regardless of whether this is something I like. This is an argument of efficiency. If it's difficult to work efficiently
WH11NE- Sunrise: that we should go that way.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yes, yeah. By the way.
WH11NE- Sunrise: I think. Yeah. So I mean, I think there's a there's a personal argument for them. I totally agree. This adds to the physical.
WH11NE- Sunrise: It's a meonfletter is cooperating. X. Ch.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Then the
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yes.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Okay.
WH11NE- Sunrise: we're all on board, all right. So yeah, there are no challenges whatsoever.
WH11NE- Sunrise: It's really hard to accelerate. And so it took a lot of It's basically screenshots from a
WH11NE- Sunrise: same time. So
WH11NE- Sunrise: starting with sort of
WH11NE- Sunrise: the luminosity that you need to do physics. So this depends on your cross-sections of interest. But so let's say, to measure pig self coupling, which is a as a cross-section. We've got 2 of our simple for electric processes. We probably want about 110,000 events
WH11NE- Sunrise: in order to get the precision that you want himself up with.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and so a reasonable goal that we'll talk about is collecting 10 and the satellites in about 5 years, which is, you know, if you do a little bit last week in one of the bummer.
WH11NE- Sunrise: But so if you assume a runtime of about 30% per year, this requires an instantaneous velocity of about 2 times.
bye.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and you can take some some theme parameters
WH11NE- Sunrise: and think about how many new ones per bunch do you need to start with? How many us do you need to make? And so
WH11NE- Sunrise: no expert here. But this is what I found in the take one.
WH11NE- Sunrise: so you can minimize sort of the size of your
WH11NE- Sunrise: We're already going to try and maximize the frequency at which we're making collisions 5 min by the confidence of our collider. So, making collisions with about 30 kilohertz.
WH11NE- Sunrise: I hope I did that after that it doesn't actually work. But anyway.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And so then
WH11NE- Sunrise: we know, maybe you know, this is gonna be challenging. So if we think about trying to maximize these 3 numbers, the best way to do is actually put all of our meal into
WH11NE- Sunrise: 2 bunches and then collide them
WH11NE- Sunrise: so one much for each team and that way you have your maximizing number of us per bunch.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And so if you take the the non-luminosity that you need.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and you take the other 2 known. You can
WH11NE- Sunrise: sort of calculate that you need at least 2
WH11NE- Sunrise: in your collider, and you also know. Give it a lifetime like the lifetime at the energy that you're at. We need to reject every 10 ms or so.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Is it here? Okay, so
WH11NE- Sunrise: how do you make 2 in within sort of a few microseconds?
WH11NE- Sunrise: So because we won't start again. They're not around this. So you need to produce them.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And we do with a high power question source on target. So your question is a target produces clients that's collecting and trying to make an email out of
WH11NE- Sunrise: you're producing your nuance. They have
WH11NE- Sunrise: large range of momentum interaction. So you need to pull them in order to reduce your the only way to do this within the amount of time available is with the ionization tooling which we have not really achieved.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And then you need to accelerate very quickly to the nominal energy for your collisions, and just in a larger range of about 70 kilometers. And then you have your collaborate, which is what
WH11NE- Sunrise: and and so
WH11NE- Sunrise: sort of throughout this whole process you expect to lose about more
back to you.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Go ahead.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And so this is the sort of proton source that you need.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So if you think about the number of questions that you need the frequency of what you need them, you get a few megawatts power source. This is something that we talked about.
WH11NE- Sunrise: We also talk about high profile power sources for zoom
WH11NE- Sunrise: and upgrade the so that's which jive nicely.
WH11NE- Sunrise: This is a lot of energy to be delivering on to the target. So that's very challenging.
WH11NE- Sunrise: I think the
WH11NE- Sunrise: or previous I power, and that works. But then you have a bunch of different 3. I think there's an upgrade or a change that test the rotating constant. So you're not totally blowing up one part of the time, and then I think
WH11NE- Sunrise: so. The conclusion is that graphite is sort of your best option for a future target, and our is happening there now.
WH11NE- Sunrise: But you also need a large radiation, for
WH11NE- Sunrise: there's also a 5. And this is something that definitely needs R. And D.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Actually the question, yeah, targets
WH11NE- Sunrise: could you so elaborate on what makes graphite better than the other one. So, for example, I've heard a lot of people interested in Mercury.
WH11NE- Sunrise: I don't know the reason, because it's dangerous. Well, that's that's fun. Yeah, no, I I think
WH11NE- Sunrise: I was told the Graphic full center.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So rather than going for that.
Tom Roberts: Oh, it's a lot more than that. The graphite tends to give you more pions per proton.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Oh.
WH11NE- Sunrise: okay, cool.
Tom Roberts: I'll remark that map did do a targeting, tested Cern using Mercury, and it succeeded. But it.
Tom Roberts: I think the the evolution of target thinking for Lbn F. Is leaning a lot stronger to graphite than to a mercury or anything else.
WH11NE- Sunrise: I didn't. I didn't know the clients, but so that was good to know.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Okay. So then there's ionization going. And so this is a a fair sketch of how this works. So you have. Your new has produced a large and so so the idea is that you pass them through a low.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and this is sort of
WH11NE- Sunrise: It's slowing down the it's reducing your transverse momentum, and then we can use an Rf. Cape to lead to to restore the longitudinal of that, so you can see sort of how you're making your be more tolerated as you go through
WH11NE- Sunrise: this whole process. The reason that this is so that you're not introducing more multiple scattering than you are.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Gotcha
WH11NE- Sunrise: reducing your 5 or submits.
And so
WH11NE- Sunrise: the nice thing is that mice the my experiment demonstrated
WH11NE- Sunrise: roughly, 10%
WH11NE- Sunrise: 40 cooling. So just this transfer, so much apart. But they did not demonstrate this sort of full 60 that you would need so making things into budgets instead of passing individual. You want to through your device. But there are multiple
WH11NE- Sunrise: sort of simulations and proposed
WH11NE- Sunrise: for us to that. So this is very much for the next step in terms of Major.
Tom Roberts: On that last slide. Let me point out that this is probably not the really best way to get a very low admittance, Being
Tom Roberts: map did. Extensive simulations on this
Tom Roberts: and helical channel has real advantages, because it will do a mittens exchange between the transverse and the longitudinal emittances, and you can cool, longitudinal, but not the transverse. But if you exchange them, you can keep cooling. The trans versus what are the longitudinal as well, and the other thing is is
Tom Roberts: brute force. A 30 to 40. Tesla magnet is probably not going to fly
Tom Roberts: for many technical reasons, whereas inducing deliberate oscillations in the transverse mode, might get you to the point where you can
Tom Roberts: get an equivalent law of it. In Spain
Tom Roberts: we called that parametric resonance cooling.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Thank you. Yeah, I definitely definitely Don't
WH11NE- Sunrise: Don't: understand this at all.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Okay. And so, then onto your accelerator and collider.
trying to answer this question of Why do you
WH11NE- Sunrise: to have 2 brains? So for your accelerator you need to accelerate your view on the less than a few seconds. So this means you have to do it within the same thing, using the same magnet. So you need your magnets to be changing
WH11NE- Sunrise: very rapidly, so you need My!
WH11NE- Sunrise: It's like a a ramp rate of about a 1,000 pes per second. The record that's been demonstrated. as far as I know, from looking at slides is about 300 Tesla per second. So that is a major area
WH11NE- Sunrise: that needs to happen. But so typically, if you're going to have to.
WH11NE- Sunrise: the field is going to be lower than what we have. If you just had that and sitting sort of at the same field.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So this is why we need a larger brand. and then
WH11NE- Sunrise: you have your collider in where, like? I said, yeah, sorry. Can you trade off some of that difficult?
WH11NE- Sunrise: If I haven't along the
WH11NE- Sunrise: I don't know.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yeah, that like how much lower management in terms of energy are you getting
WH11NE- Sunrise: absolutely? I I don't know.
WH11NE- Sunrise: I I I want to share that we've got somebody on shift who can't ask a question verbally and put it on the chat.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So Claire, as for doing the plan to get to is a 1.2. Meg want be upgraded to 2.4. Is that useful here? Proton team energy? She thinks it's 60 to 120 TV.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yeah. I think it's. It's simply a 7 reflection.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yeah. And and and as a reminder to the remote people, everybody singing the room can't see the zoom chat, including the speaker. Tom answers that the you on Collider
WH11NE- Sunrise: probably needs a much lower energy, part time being 10, G, we probably higher power. 5 Meg blocks. I'll be enough for 10 energies after 22,
WH11NE- Sunrise: so it's clear on shift. I can continue passing her messages along with everybody else. If you can speak and then raise your hand, that' be great. Thank you.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Okay, right. So for the provider ring, one as following as possible. So we talked about first and 7 6 6 to test the dipole, which gives you
WH11NE- Sunrise: for a time to be fired at 3,000 trips around the ring.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and so something that's a little bit different here is that you would need to prevent much from that. You want to get products to. You have fairly large aperture magnets.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and probably the best way to go
WH11NE- Sunrise: this. It
WH11NE- Sunrise: make it quite expensive.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So you want the highest
WH11NE- Sunrise: large relative to what we have now. Aperture right?
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yeah. Time.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yeah.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And then so something that comes up very often is in the right. So you have very high energy nuance, which, with decay, if you treat it as an electron.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So you have a bunch of TV neutrons sort of coming out very collaborated with the I'm creating these hotspots of relation.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And actually they're probably fine for you. It's just that they're not fine for me If they interact with matter in between you and me, because then they're creating charge products.
But actually there's been some damage to you.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And so
WH11NE- Sunrise: when I was a previous to
WH11NE- Sunrise: previous to my interactions with. you would see pictures of like a new one, lighter sitting in a mountain, so that it wouldn't irritate people or underground, and a desert, or something like this.
WH11NE- Sunrise: But
WH11NE- Sunrise: those proposed solutions are not, maybe the most useful, and so it's useful to think about mitigation techniques. So depth is definitely helpful.
WH11NE- Sunrise: But also you can minimize the field free region, so like in my straight sections in this wonder. And then there is this concept of which is basically taking the hotspot and trying to distribute it over time. So that way, you know, one area gets to origin a dose.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And so Matt
WH11NE- Sunrise: proposed about a 10 times reduction
WH11NE- Sunrise: of the nutrients of the about 1 cm of modeling roughly in the vertical plan, using a
WH11NE- Sunrise: which works within the large aperture. But it doesn't work.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So the international meal fighter. Collaboration talks about it for about 100 times reduction
WH11NE- Sunrise: about 10 cm. So this is definitely one of my I would like to talk to an engineer.
WH11NE- Sunrise: I understand exactly how reasonable this is.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Great questions. What is the time scale of the wobbling or the frequent? Is it like every run you change it, or like, continuously.
Gotcha
WH11NE- Sunrise: especially, you can't send a
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yeah, okay. But is it like you're You're going?
WH11NE- Sunrise: How how many centimeters in every few weeks
WH11NE- Sunrise: of the actual perfect.
WH11NE- Sunrise: How exactly it works. This is the maximum. Okay.
Tom Roberts: Yeah. Well, the the main way you reduce this is by minimizing the straight sections. But that's very difficult to do right at your collider detector.
Tom Roberts: Moreover, it's kind of hard to move your whole detector up and down by 10 cm. So so the thought was to try and
Tom Roberts: AIM those regions where that it exits the earth
Tom Roberts: in the oceans.
WH11NE- Sunrise: in your straight section out of the Atlantic.
Tom Roberts: Yeah or Pacific.
WH11NE- Sunrise: I don't know before people take this slide and then jump to really dangerous
WH11NE- Sunrise: your offsite. You're only one. It's, say, a 1,000 microsiever per year, a typical chance of money. Flight is about 3 microseconds.
WH11NE- Sunrise: We take many of those. and so your your our goal would be
WH11NE- Sunrise: really well below it's nice and very safe.
WH11NE- Sunrise: or about as state as the Lhc. This is the what is that number now
WH11NE- Sunrise: that yeah.
WH11NE- Sunrise: there is some awesome that is.
WH11NE- Sunrise: this is per.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So we know how to do that. Yeah, I see. Okay.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So if you want like bottom line of what we understand right now, things change picking your goals, right. But
WH11NE- Sunrise: if you want a 3 TV colliders you can go 200 meters deep. and you are below for me
WH11NE- Sunrise: without without. Okay. You go to 10 TV you need. You cannot just put the the 200 meters. And so with that you can actually stay.
WH11NE- Sunrise: I think the sales and puts at the number that's any shown which is completely negligible. But even with a smaller level, you are the low threshold, but not as small as that.
WH11NE- Sunrise: There is phone number that good geology all the way down.
WH11NE- Sunrise: It's a good geology all the way down, like how people we go before. Yeah, I think I was some streams like. Can you just make the choir like this? As long as planes don't fly over it?
WH11NE- Sunrise: No flies out, and so these these you want to case, and they're also cost challenges for physics.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So particularly in case I have a detector, we'll interact with some of the accelerator lattice and material in between you in between them and the detector, creating these massive showers of very large numbers of portfolios, and so I think.
WH11NE- Sunrise: but for snow math. So within a couple of years time
WH11NE- Sunrise: people were not necessarily convinced that we could do physics, and it's kind of an environment. And in the next section we're going to try to, and that is, I think, one of the very nice things
that's so best.
Tom Roberts: Yeah, you missed an important background.
Tom Roberts: You normally think of neutrinos. It's not interacting very much, but remember their car their interaction cross-section rises linearly with energy. And you've got multi TV neutrinos entering your detector from decays upstream at both sides. The estimate was for a 3 plus 3
Tom Roberts: Muon collider. You would have approximately one neutrino interaction per crossing in your detector.
Tom Roberts: Now the advantage is.
Tom Roberts: they are not pointing at the interaction. They are pointing up streams so, and at that energy you can probably detect where they're pointing, and and the other thing is, they all happen in a very narrow ledge. They're not uniform around like this. They're all in a wedge the
Tom Roberts: that it has an apex at the crop be the beam crossing, and grows slowly to the outside. There are none of them on the inside of the detector inside, meaning towards the inner radius of the ring.
Tom Roberts: So so the neutrino to neutrino backgrounds are quite localized and not pointing. I don't know what all these red dots are, because they don't look like that. They are. Yeah, I think this is from mostly electrons interacting with the
WH11NE- Sunrise: do a business with this.
Tom Roberts: but it's just it just blows. It just blew us away to realize that we had roughly a megahertz rate of neutrino interactions in this really nice detector and doing neutrino physics at the Mu on Collider would really be a thing
WH11NE- Sunrise: that's awesome.
WH11NE- Sunrise: of course.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yeah, can you do physics with that? I don't know. Going back to what was asked earlier. Like you, you have a straight section that corresponds to the interaction region.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yeah, that's right. Section cannot be done. So you have 5 of your neutrinos that are coming out of the or somewhere.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So one of the ideas that has been proposed is you can actually find out that you pointed at the right place by that map that you build, that you'd be the experiment because you get high energy in 3 notes, and that and it's very mobile. So it's not. It's not a wide area.
WH11NE- Sunrise: but I mean so theories we're thinking about what you said. You You change the pointing angles and maximize the baseline
WH11NE- Sunrise: for your neutrinos, you know, in terms of you, can transactions from the detector that we're thinking about. How often does that actually happen?
WH11NE- Sunrise: That's right. But it's simulated, but not there to the tenth of the 7.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Okay. Okay. So then, moving to trying to extract the physics out of this entire point, so your detector design is going to be completely this background. And so a lot of the team, from a really great talk that took a at the to our workshop in December and definitely condensed version of it.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Okay. So
WH11NE- Sunrise: starting with the basics, so we talked about how you're providing 2 bunches and refilling. So your time between collisions is on the order of 3 microseconds. Your feelings are surviving, on average, 2,000, 3,000, and you need to inject every.
WH11NE- Sunrise: But so this sort of translates to a a number of we have about a 100 times lower.
WH11NE- Sunrise: because I thought Tom said something like a Megahertz.
This is.
Tom Roberts: I said, a megahertz. I really meant the 30 kilohertz that you have here was roughly 1 1 one neutrino interaction for crossing roughly.
WH11NE- Sunrise: This number is not a megahertz because we don't. There's only one there's only one lunch. So it's just yeah, 3,010 kilometers divided by C.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Not like can't we have buckets. But no. that's
Tom Roberts: so. No, no, because I don't want that discussion now, because of going back to it so. But if you, if you just think about it at a 30 kilohertz rate in just a few hours or days you'll have a lot more neutrino interactions than the entire world
Tom Roberts: has today.
WH11NE- Sunrise: I I guess I was seeing more like a one in, I I understand. But let's talk about it. And then the other day. That's my Michael. Okay, so in terms of the signal that you're trying to track. This is this is the event that you have to deal with, and separated from background
WH11NE- Sunrise: in terms of the security stuff that you have to worry about
WH11NE- Sunrise: this through you. Do you have the case within about 20 meters of your interaction point, and so if I don't integrate, and I do some approximations
WH11NE- Sunrise: roughly the fraction of new ones in your bunch that are gonna be paying it's on the order of 10 to the minus 6. So if you're starting with for 12, you want for a bunch, you get about 10 to the 7 decades that are happening.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and the total energy of those 2 K products is on the order of 50, and I
WH11NE- Sunrise: exit something.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So it's. So it is a lot and something that's kind of interesting to think about is that the the number of that you are getting
WH11NE- Sunrise: decreases with energy like. But
WH11NE- Sunrise: if you're thinking about sort of the energy of those State products. Your energy now, and it's it's. It's completely independent of the energy which is kind of nice, because it means that the
as it goes to higher energies.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Okay.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So there's so many particles that we try to stop them from entry car detector with, and roughly, about 10 degrees in size.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and so they are very good at blocking my momentum prop particles, but they also create a lot of. And so this is a picture of
WH11NE- Sunrise: a single view on the day sort of coming with the even interacting with the nozzle. And you can see that it's really dominated by these low energy, and these plots here at the bottom.
WH11NE- Sunrise: so distributions of particles that are produced without. No. And what happens if you put that
WH11NE- Sunrise: space? And
WH11NE- Sunrise: this this sort of question was, If you're creating so many transit, are the not actually useful? And answer is yes, like you're complete. You're totally reducing the amount of particles that are in your detector. But you're still getting on the order of 10 to the set of particles.
WH11NE- Sunrise: mostly
WH11NE- Sunrise: What? Why can then?
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yes, no, I don't know. Okay.
WH11NE- Sunrise: that's all. So what what is that? So you have the the influences there. What does it correspond to in terms of
WH11NE- Sunrise: excellent yeah.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So we'll get there.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Okay. And so then we're thinking about the background particles that have made it through the nozzles and are entering into our detector what they look like.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and they have really unusual position and functioning, especially with the signal that we're expecting to come out of the interaction point on a deep working at time moment.
WH11NE- Sunrise: There are also really low energy. The best we already have are below 250, and they are partially out of talking. especially the little
WH11NE- Sunrise: energy. Neutrons are the most out of time, and so timing windows and precision. Timing is going to be very important for.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and then, in terms of all of the particles that are hitting our detector, and what this means in terms of dose.
WH11NE- Sunrise: You can sort of see it
here consistently.
WH11NE- Sunrise: but there is higher options.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So you do need more.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And so pretty much every detector. So
WH11NE- Sunrise: you're going to be optimizing our granularity and your like in your segmentation to to basically reduce your occupancy such that you take the 6
WH11NE- Sunrise: and walking through the the tracker, since that is the biggest challenge.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So if you all know this rule of them that you need to AIM for less than 1%. So the collaboration started it sort of the quick detective design and then modify something.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and you can kind of get a sense of sort of the average number of Hits person who just worked here. This is this is with already a one in a second time without like an integration, with no 5.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And then you can think about using even more precision Steps your time overall to to reduce that.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So if you take kind of these shit densities.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and think about how many pixels, or what? What what strict size do you need
WH11NE- Sunrise: to keep your occupants low. These are roughly the sizes that you get so pixels that are smaller than we have for Hlc. Mac macro, pixels and strips, and also to reduce the use background in terms of any sort of tracking or on the tetrahedral data reduction.
WH11NE- Sunrise: You really want your free paper time resolution, you know, Pixel, detector, and roughly, 60 out of layers. Other things that are useful are having doublet layers.
WH11NE- Sunrise: It's coming in this way.
WH11NE- Sunrise: If you are looking for courses, and it tells you it's a particle that's pointing to the interaction point. That's a great way to reduce your
yeah.
WH11NE- Sunrise: I have a question for this pixel assigned this the so that's I would like the Doesn't top to get to any pixels. Or this is basically what you can do to request this 1%,
the one that of some of the integrations.
Yeah.
WH11NE- Sunrise: sort of yeah. But they do have a say full of pixels that the the
WH11NE- Sunrise: or there was some like technologies, invitations that it was to his number, or it was right what the priority for it
WH11NE- Sunrise: I was looking for to all the ashes.
This is the
WH11NE- Sunrise: Okay. And so then
WH11NE- Sunrise: you've designed your pixels and you have precision timing. Now you need to read it out. And so out of the every interaction that you have. It's interesting. So your goal is to be to see that so starting them for
i'm thinking about a typical pixel module size.
WH11NE- Sunrise: How many pixels you have your module
WH11NE- Sunrise: That should be just like 0 1 1%. And then you about how many pixel could you get? Per module the typical hit size. They need to cope with your position, your charge, any sort of position, time, stamp, and thinking about roughly. You know what is your data rate per model.
WH11NE- Sunrise: It's going to be on the order of 15 users per second. But if you have roughly 5,
WH11NE- Sunrise: Okay. So
WH11NE- Sunrise: this is by double than what the secret of the detectors we'll have so definitely. You're gonna need to deal with that because bandwidth requires power and also time, resolution far to power, and on David on the other day reductions. It's very important, forgetting all of this off of your
WH11NE- Sunrise: if you think about Trigger straight, so trying trying to avoid the need for trigger thinking about numbers of expecting, as Lhc. You have about 10 times the hit density.
WH11NE- Sunrise: but 1 one thousandth of the event rate, and this is roughly
WH11NE- Sunrise: or something.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So these numbers give you sort of data rates per second
WH11NE- Sunrise: that are similar to the
WH11NE- Sunrise: hlt, so it's it's different reach. But obviously it's gonna be important. And also
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yes.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Okay. So then you can ask a quick question.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yeah.
Jeffrey Dandoy: in in general, for the very first bunch crossings when the mu on beams really as fresh as we can get it. How how many muon interactions do we expect on average, per crossing?
WH11NE- Sunrise: You expect roughly one, we want collision per interaction.
Jeffrey Dandoy: Okay. So sometimes we'll get multiple.
Jeffrey Dandoy: Okay. So the we'll have quite a few. Well, we'll have 2 or 3 or more, and there might be some utility in trying to extract the physics separately for each of those crossings.
Jeffrey Dandoy: It's not really any more, you know. We just want to look at the hardest one. We really want to look at all of them at one time.
Jeffrey Dandoy: Okay, we have a lot of time.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yeah, you have plenty of time. It's a lot of time between crossers.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So you should be able to.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Okay. And then
WH11NE- Sunrise: you've got all your data off with your detector. And now you need to do this construction. And so a lot of work has gone into this during the past 2 years. But it is definitely an active area development, and it definitely works well to do the physics that we want to do
WH11NE- Sunrise: so.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Some numbers that sort of are documented in this time as well. You have about a 100,000 same tracks for that. And this is meant to be a picture of some of those comments
WH11NE- Sunrise: text. But you have a lot of candles to play with, so you can reduce this to replay and under track after you make some very minimal requirements and track.
WH11NE- Sunrise: etc. But so yeah, looking at this 100 K tracks per event, you could see there's definitely 7 per the number of things that you start with, and probably also the time.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And you there are some thoughts here about comparing your real and your fake tracks that you're constructing, and then you can also see that you get good tracker construction efficiency
WH11NE- Sunrise: with and without you. Sure.
WH11NE- Sunrise: What's the solenoid field?
WH11NE- Sunrise: I don't remember
WH11NE- Sunrise: It's like 3.6, 3 points. You get rid of more background because it's all it's pretty soft, right
WH11NE- Sunrise: the stuff that's coming through. So you wrap up your your fields more in it.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Just get something
WH11NE- Sunrise: plus
WH11NE- Sunrise: okay? And so I I will go through the
WH11NE- Sunrise: but I promise you they all work. It is, you do similar sort of exercise going through what sort of size we need. And so the end question is, can we extract the physics that we want out of the No applied or in the face of the background. And so
WH11NE- Sunrise: one of the conclusions from if you assume about one in the 5, or you can extract a lot of physics, and we do a lot of estimates of how good your his management will be. For instance.
WH11NE- Sunrise: comparing fast and original full simulation. I think it is very promising that both it pretty and you're getting used to physics out out of this small data set at.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So what's next?
WH11NE- Sunrise: I think we need to keep up with momentum.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So in terms of building the physics space all of a sudden it's for a full zoom, and the tester design was optimized for us for
WH11NE- Sunrise: 10 to the detector is very much a work in progress. There is a lot of room for refining the detector design and reconstruction.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and simulating the image of spectrum. Is that a bottleneck? I think that's a topic for the
WH11NE- Sunrise: there's a lot of I need to do in the she's a sequel in dumb share all of our full-scale demonstrator.
WH11NE- Sunrise: The International Newsletter collaboration has some proposals for how to do this, that they discussed at their most recently
WH11NE- Sunrise: lots of magnet. And then also, you need an initial design for the team.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Quite a facility. It'd be really nice if you could get a design or something like that if it's in your website.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and I think we have a lot of higher level questions that we need to answer to, such as what is the best staging strategy I was starting at it's not going to be likely, is 3. T. The best option
WH11NE- Sunrise: is that driven by the accelerator technology or by physics or both.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Can we extract physics from one of these demonstrators, which would be really great. So this is so kind of far away, and I think we also have the existential existential question of is the Us. Ready to build the next.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So to conclude, Neil flies are awesome. They're a paradigm shift for hygiene physics. You can do precision and high energy, and they are compact and efficient and cost effective. They are also timely.
WH11NE- Sunrise: and I think it requires a lot of new ideas and energy from junior physicists. So let's make it happen.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Thank you.
Excellent.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Let's take some questions from the zoom first.
WH11NE- Sunrise: All right, Jeffrey.
Jeffrey Dandoy: maybe jump back in.
Jeffrey Dandoy: I I wanted to follow up thinking about your answer, so you said about one collision per crossing. I guess that's by design, then right?
Jeffrey Dandoy: It's one that's sort of what we're targeting. Has anybody thought about how hard it would be to distingle? Disentangle 2 collisions at once? You know. Can we still get just as much physics out of it, or 3 or 4?
WH11NE- Sunrise: I think the the challenge is getting the the number of you know it's pretty much in the first place. So
Jeffrey Dandoy: So the one is an actual technical limitation.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yeah, there is like there is a technical invitation to having a pile of new ones in your
WH11NE- Sunrise: like any.
Tom Roberts: And the real challenge is getting enough luminosity to do that.
Jeffrey Dandoy: Yeah.
Jeffrey Dandoy: okay, because I just imagine these are so rare, and they just spirit so quickly. We really just want to cloud as many as we can.
Jeffrey Dandoy: and really, if we can, you know Clyde twice as much. Then. you know, we can probably disentangle them, and we'll. We'll get twice as much as this. But okay.
WH11NE- Sunrise: that would be a good problem to have
WH11NE- Sunrise: alright, Tom.
Tom Roberts: Yes, way back on Slide 20. You gave a list of of things
Tom Roberts: to
Tom Roberts: parameters for the overall system. And so, for instance, a single bunch, and 10 to to 10, to the 12 muons per bunch.
Tom Roberts: Map felt those were quite reasonable, and could be could be done without outrageous effort.
Tom Roberts: but minimizing the Sigma x and Y to a a micron is probably impossible, even 2 to 5 microns is extremely difficult.
Tom Roberts: and that's where the challenge is. So, My, My my comment is basically you really want to concentrate on the final stages of 6 dimensional cooling
Tom Roberts: and get some demonstration to do that.
Tom Roberts: because that's going to be the make or break for a me on Collider.
WH11NE- Sunrise: all right, and little questions if 5 users.
WH11NE- Sunrise: So you and your motivation you talked about it'd be really awesome to see the it's a quarter of coupling. But I don't think I saw the I don't even answer to that. Yeah, so is there any. Yeah, so you can see I I feel like I was working on doing that for this.
WH11NE- Sunrise: But so yeah, so you can see the cross-section for triple fixed production, and
WH11NE- Sunrise: if you want to do the map in the moment I'm not going to risk it, you can take a look at the company in order to pay for about 2 years. So it' be a year and a half, though, which has the estimate.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yeah, it's it's it's it's it's
WH11NE- Sunrise: This is the end of mobile couple, so we consider not going on. But there's there's many other ways to myself. So is it specifically the that?
WH11NE- Sunrise: Oh, you mean not all they tried, but you didn't get it from by it. So i'm i'm just asking, etc. It's specifically the correct. Those events are actually the coupling as opposed to
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yeah, I just I don't. I didn't think I put that thing for Exactly.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Okay.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Oh, yeah, how about the number of interaction points. It's.
WH11NE- Sunrise: I think, too.
that, too.
WH11NE- Sunrise: because I guess it was a vector to well, a picture of one over it.
WH11NE- Sunrise: It's 5 min of running.
WH11NE- Sunrise: so we can improve this by a lot. But from the you know.
WH11NE- Sunrise: like Fcc. 25 years. So I you know it's it's important to know that they're risks, but it's also important to know that there are ways to improve the
WH11NE- Sunrise: they. So many things right
WH11NE- Sunrise: are there, i'm. On the same point, though. Are there. Some
WH11NE- Sunrise: straight sections, I guess, limit the number of interaction points that you can have probably so so many ways to.
WH11NE- Sunrise: I don't know if that's concerned. Geographically. Yeah.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yeah, there's only so many directions. You probably saw that the detector is going to be very expensive. There have some convention, but also I didn't have this detective.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yeah, I I sorry I don't remember.
WH11NE- Sunrise: I don't know if I have it in the paper. It's i'm sure you can find it right.
WH11NE- Sunrise: And then the what do you have? A question?
WH11NE- Sunrise: Maybe you said it. But what kind of technology would you consider for the
WH11NE- Sunrise: So I think this is this is like one of the nice things about it being so far away like so okay. So like, if you think about what can give you 25 by 25
WH11NE- Sunrise: that exists. Okay, is it radiation card? Or you know electronics that can can with can fit within your power, for Sure, you know. So there's definitely.
WH11NE- Sunrise: That's an example or something that quick, correct? Yeah.
WH11NE- Sunrise: okay.
WH11NE- Sunrise: I think one of the things that we would all like to see from out of 5 is my for specific technology for the customized future discovery machine. Right?
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yes.
WH11NE- Sunrise: actually, what does it? The this would be sort of like a
WH11NE- Sunrise: I mean, that's it. And
WH11NE- Sunrise: oh, this probably the process different thing! I haven't thought about that.
WH11NE- Sunrise: No.
Tom Roberts: Oh, wait, Tom, do you have a question again?
Tom Roberts: Are attending this on the on the chat or on the on the zoom. In fact, I only recognize 2 of us
Tom Roberts: now. Map ended in 2,015,
Tom Roberts: and everybody moved on to something else. But I I
Tom Roberts: but you really want to get people who have done this, and map is probably a major resource for people who have done this, although i'll admit I look at the
Tom Roberts: I look at the pictures in the zoom of the attendance, and I see that that there are a lot more young people here than there were in map and map, you know, 8 to 10 years ago, and a lot of us have retired. So
Tom Roberts: you know, I think that's a good thing that you've got a relatively young group interested in this.
Tom Roberts: But I think you wanna open dialogue with people from map.
Tom Roberts: because there's a lot of institutional knowledge there that didn't get into the documents
WH11NE- Sunrise: we do for just one present here.
WH11NE- Sunrise: maybe not correctly, because
WH11NE- Sunrise: we Don't have a view on programs in us at the moment. We hope that something like this will happen in the future. It's also, i'm willing to you know, discuss, and participate in conversations.
WH11NE- Sunrise: We also explicitly advertised it as a
WH11NE- Sunrise: introductory presentation. So those who already worked on Mac they thought that I
WH11NE- Sunrise: I'm. Largely based on the concept. There's no question
WH11NE- Sunrise: I would. I would also extend your comment and say it's great that there are a lot of people who are excited about this because it's our future. But I think we have a lot more in general from older generations of physicists actually
WH11NE- Sunrise: made a future collider happen or witness it not happen
WH11NE- Sunrise: So I think of that more. We can probably get the back end to come by getting this talk, some teaching us some to it, and that's why we have to see If somebody asked at the beginning of this thing.
WH11NE- Sunrise: You can be done in 2 or 3 sessions, because they are only 2 or 3. That's not the idea. The idea is to learn about it. So they're going to be 100 set such session, you know. I'll call it up before you get to do it
before I die.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Let's go on. Thank you all for attending many, 2 weeks from now you'll watch our front, and now it's fine.
WH11NE- Sunrise: Yes, I yeah. Also suggestions, I would say suggestions on topic. I'm very welcome.
WH11NE- Sunrise: There's a mailing list right there. Lpc: that C. Ot. So collectors up tomorrow, so IP see that you can send suggestions.