Juliette Alimena: Okay, great
Juliette Alimena: and share my screen. I've just got like 2, maybe 3 slides of news.
Juliette Alimena: okay.
Juliette Alimena: okay, great. So welcome. Everyone to the Fcc meeting, so I'll just get started with a bit of news.
Juliette Alimena: So probably you've seen at at least from last week. But the the Fcc. Feasibility study is being
Juliette Alimena: There's going to be a first draft of the the report by the end of the year, and the the draft
Juliette Alimena: version 0 that we will review, or you know the
Juliette Alimena: the conveners will review internally first within Fcc. Ped.
Juliette Alimena: Will be for the by the end of September.
Juliette Alimena: And actually this is all well aligned with the Exa deadlines towards moving towards the the update of the European Strategy Report, where the deadlines for for new ex results, for for Efa are the Paris workshop in October. So lots of things happening October ish, but the
Juliette Alimena: the deadline. I want you to make sure to to note is the end of September, because that's when the Fcc internal ped review will need to happen. So if you are wanted to make these deadlines.
Juliette Alimena: Make sure to have the the work done in the documentation ready by by then by September. Basically.
Juliette Alimena: Okay, along with with that for for expo. There was a recent Lp roundtable. On April 20, ninth.
Juliette Alimena: So in case you you missed it, please check out the the slides, and there's a recording on the the agenda as well.
Juliette Alimena: Then, in terms of other events, including. So first to today, at this this meeting we will hear 2 presentations, actually one from Gail on tracking, and Vera texting in the Cld. December with Folsom, and also from Sophia on H. And l's in a realistic oscillation model.
Juliette Alimena: Then the next couple of weeks I have a I have conflicts, so our next meeting will be June sixth, when we'll hear an update for from Tom about the delacronation L channel
Juliette Alimena: and in general reminder, just let me know whenever you want to to give a presentation in this meeting.
Juliette Alimena: Yeah, I we could accommodate another presentation, probably on June sixth, but also in in June. And further on in in the summer.
Juliette Alimena: Okay. And then beyond
Juliette Alimena: the these meetings. You know that Fcc week is happening in San Francisco in
Juliette Alimena: matter of weeks in June
Juliette Alimena: and then, as I mentioned the Equa Higgs factories, workshop in Paris in October, there's also in Italy, France, Fcc. Workshop happening in Venice in November.
Juliette Alimena: and, as usual. I give you the links to other meetings that might be of interest, namely, Fcc. Folsom and Fcc. Analysis meetings. And also access seminars and workshops. Here's the the whole category.
Juliette Alimena: Okay, that's all. I had any questions for me.
Juliette Alimena: not seeing any hands. I think
Juliette Alimena: so. Let me stop sharing.
Juliette Alimena: and we can go to Gail if you like.
Juliette Alimena: if you're ready.
Gaelle Sadowski: Hello! Yes, I will share my screen.
Juliette Alimena: Great thanks.
Gaelle Sadowski: Can you see the slides.
Juliette Alimena: Yes.
Gaelle Sadowski: So I will present you an update on the AV natural Lepton studies with Cld. Full simulation.
Gaelle Sadowski: So this is a full simulation. Studies with Cld. Detector. The exact geometry used is the Cld. O, one v. 4.
Gaelle Sadowski: The additional.
Gaelle Sadowski: What I used is the one the same as the one used in this paper
Gaelle Sadowski: for the study we used the full simulation with Tdc. And reconstruction with marlene with key for rep.
Gaelle Sadowski: In the last result I presented, we observed that there were no reconstructed trucks of a displacement of 10 centimetre.
Gaelle Sadowski: As you can see, this is the generated displacement for each email vertex. And this is the reconstructed displacement.
Gaelle Sadowski: and this plot is a comparison between generated displacement and reconstructive displacement.
Gaelle Sadowski: So we can see that there's no request to vertex up to 100
Gaelle Sadowski: in Cld. Full simulation. The tracking is made with conformal tracking, which consists of conformal mapping and cellular automaton track funding for
Gaelle Sadowski: button recognition
Gaelle Sadowski: conformal mapping convert XY. Coordinates in UV coordinates in conformal space space space space
Gaelle Sadowski: so circles passing through the origin or transforming to straight lines.
Gaelle Sadowski: as you can see. In these examples
Gaelle Sadowski: prom tracks are converted into straight lines in conformal space.
Gaelle Sadowski: but not displace tracks.
Gaelle Sadowski: Oh.
Gaelle Sadowski: so performer tracking is made with 6 different steps.
Gaelle Sadowski: the 5 first steps of prompt tracks.
Gaelle Sadowski: and the last step for displaced trucks where tracks are built with all the leftover hits.
Gaelle Sadowski: and this is a plot from conformal tracking at click paper which so show the role of these displaced steps for reconstructed displaced vertices.
Gaelle Sadowski: and I did the same plot for the HTML model, and we can see that we have a way about this last step. We don't observe much difference.
Gaelle Sadowski: so this is not working as it should.
Gaelle Sadowski: Inside this step 5. There is several parameters, and the problem was with these 2. There are the window for extension to next it.
Gaelle Sadowski: By setting a bigger value. We observe now twice more via taxes.
Gaelle Sadowski: But we also discovered another issue with electron reconstruction efficiency in the top plot. This is a channel vertex with reconstructed electron trucks. And below this is a channel vertex with all reconstructed tracks.
Gaelle Sadowski: So electrons are not reconstructed properly.
Gaelle Sadowski: So I redo the studi, considering all reconstructed tracks
Gaelle Sadowski: by selecting, generated a channel vertex to match with the tracker acceptance
Gaelle Sadowski: by considering our reconstructed particle matched with the generated electrons.
Gaelle Sadowski: and we have momentum at least 5 jf.
Gaelle Sadowski: An event with exactly 2 reconstructed particles with some charge equals 0 and environment mass incompatible with a jet bosen.
Gaelle Sadowski: and then the tax reconstruction with the reconstituted trucks.
Gaelle Sadowski: and this is very constricted with a channel vertex that we observe now.
Gaelle Sadowski: So we see vertexes up to 600 displacement, as expected from the conformal tracking paper.
Gaelle Sadowski: This is an invariant mass, so it's match the generated level. But if we look into the Pdg idea of recall particles, they are mainly photons.
Gaelle Sadowski: This is an example for 15 GV. Channel. But this is also the case for view of mass.
Gaelle Sadowski: and to conclude, the displaced trucks are now currently correctly reconstructed, that the electron are not reconstructed properly. And now we need to investigate on that.
Gaelle Sadowski: That's it. Thank you.
Juliette Alimena: Okay, great thanks, a lot.
Juliette Alimena: Questions.
Juliette Alimena: Maybe while people think of their questions, I've got one. I think it was on Slide 7.
Juliette Alimena: So
Juliette Alimena: yeah, it was a bit fast for me, but I I think I think I got the main points. When you make the this change from point one to 2.5, and these 2 2 variables, Max cell angle and Max cell angle. Rz,
Juliette Alimena: it. So
Juliette Alimena: how did you choose these values. And and
Juliette Alimena: is it expected, I mean, which values were used in the other plot from earlier? I guess it was slide 6 or 5
Gaelle Sadowski: I'm.
Juliette Alimena: Yeah, this is one on. No, no, just slides.
Gaelle Sadowski: And see.
Juliette Alimena: Yeah, the one on the left here in step 5 in the blue. I'm sorry. Slide 6.
Gaelle Sadowski: Yeah, this is our one. The previous value was 0 point 1.
Gaelle Sadowski: And I choose 0 point 5. I made a quick studio with single tracks.
Gaelle Sadowski: and I saw that
Gaelle Sadowski: 0 point 5 gives a good result. But as I I didn't say it sorry, but it's quite an arbitrary choice of optimization are required in more busy events.
Gaelle Sadowski: Nicole.
Juliette Alimena: Okay.
Gaelle Sadowski: It has only been tested with single tracks and with a training model.
Gaelle Sadowski: if I can just just complete
Gaelle Sadowski: the the
Gaelle Sadowski: tracking is like a little bit iterative tracking in Cms. You have various steps that depends on the seeds.
Gaelle Sadowski: and you go for the title. All the prompt seats, if you like, and then what is left over? You try to do
Gaelle Sadowski: this place for construction, and as again showing in place of displace tracks, you don't get a straight line, you get to a curb line.
Gaelle Sadowski: So because conformal tracking is meant to be used for contracts, and and because in the in the change of reference frame that that shown
Gaelle Sadowski: It's really the point is that you get something straight when you, when you go to the conformal space for contracts or pattern recognition is easy.
Gaelle Sadowski: Contracts. It's not straight anymore, it's good. And so if when you have the see, then you search for the next hits in the next layer. You have a window.
Gaelle Sadowski: and you need to open more the window, because the heat is not right ahead. It's actually a little bit on the side. And so that's why, again, try to improve this
Gaelle Sadowski: window search. Which is this Max Cell Longle?
Gaelle Sadowski: Actually, you know better again, what is the difference between the 2. I never remember
Gaelle Sadowski: and so you open up this, and you see if you get more tracks. So
Gaelle Sadowski: it's like sending tech. But it requires more, more optimization.
Juliette Alimena: Okay? Sure. But on slide 6, did. They did. Someone else. In the left plot, reconstruct displaced tracks by having these values at point one each.
Gaelle Sadowski: You mean? Why, why, before it worked, and now it doesn't work with the same parameters.
Juliette Alimena: Yeah. How do they get the blue line in the left plot?
Gaelle Sadowski: We don't know. We don't know but it was for click detector, so.
Gaelle Sadowski: Yeah, if you yeah, I think we check. This is the same parameter that we have in click and cld.
Gaelle Sadowski: but if you change the geometry you change the spacing between layers. Typically, then the window has to be adapted.
Gaelle Sadowski: So my suspicion would be that the geometry is slightly different for that specific case so that the windows they use doesn't work anymore.
Juliette Alimena: I see. Okay. So can you talk to to see all the tracking experts and ask if
Juliette Alimena: this parameter could potentially be changed after we do do more studies and show that the rates don't blow up for background.
Gaelle Sadowski: Yeah, I think so. To you. I think you reported this.
Juliette Alimena: Alright, great.
Gaelle Sadowski: Letting them know.
Juliette Alimena: Cool
Juliette Alimena: other questions or comments.
Juliette Alimena: I think that that was sort of my my main question, like, okay.
Juliette Alimena: let's let's change this. If it makes sense.
Juliette Alimena: or ask if it can be so, I guess. Yeah, have you studied? I guess you haven't studied background yet with with these changes in place.
Gaelle Sadowski: No, not yet, not yet. But we want to understand the electron issue first.
Juliette Alimena: That's that's true.
Gaelle Sadowski: Yeah, as I said we, we don't get up for the electrons we we were expecting.
Juliette Alimena: Yeah.
Gaelle Sadowski: Even if the tax are there. And so it's like, they are constructed as photons, and we have to understand
Gaelle Sadowski: why, I guess again might be a
Gaelle Sadowski: parameterization of the particular flow that needs to be adapted. Again. I don't know.
Juliette Alimena: Yeah, I I mean, if they're displaced enough, if the elections are displaced enough, I'm not surprised if they're reconstructed as photons. But if it may be really, as, as you say, a matter of optimizing.
Juliette Alimena: and some values.
Gaelle Sadowski: What Gail shown, she restrained the vertex Gen. Vertex position to the tricer acceptance. So make sure.
Juliette Alimena: Right.
Gaelle Sadowski: It's a lot like very long lived, and they don't get a lot of the
Gaelle Sadowski: of the
Gaelle Sadowski: other. Tokyo.
Juliette Alimena: Yeah, indeed, thanks for reminding me.
Juliette Alimena: Okay.
Juliette Alimena: Other comments or questions.
Juliette Alimena: Alright. Well.
Juliette Alimena: I I don't hear any. So thanks a lot. And then good luck with the next steps
Juliette Alimena: and keep us posted.
Juliette Alimena: Thank you.
Juliette Alimena: Okay. So next is Sophia.
Juliette Alimena: Yes.
Sofia Giappichini: Time.
Juliette Alimena: Hi, this.
Sofia Giappichini: Oh! If you can see, I must not.
Juliette Alimena: Yes.
Sofia Giappichini: So I wanted to give this presentation today because we're very close to finishing. And you probably already saw
Sofia Giappichini: some updates on this project that started out as my master thesis back in basically last year.
Sofia Giappichini: and is now coming to the conclusion.
Sofia Giappichini: So
Sofia Giappichini: so the main difference between our study and all the other studies on eternals is that we are taking a model with 2 H. And ls.
Sofia Giappichini: and they have they tackle to all the laptop. So
Sofia Giappichini: we need to consider
Sofia Giappichini: different ratios between the top links. And for this we can take into consideration also the
Sofia Giappichini: yeah limits imposed by oscillation data.
Sofia Giappichini: So we selected the a few points that you can see in this plot where we have the source. So
Sofia Giappichini: we have some points that agree with the normal hierarchy and also points for the invested hierarchy.
Sofia Giappichini: And in this case, basically we can also maximize the cross section by choosing the parameters appropriately, specifically choosing a correct mass difference between the 2 way channels, which is very small and so on.
Sofia Giappichini: We basically have a quasi diak pair
Sofia Giappichini: and the simulation from well, I did in my master. Thesis was updated recently to work in Fcc analysis. So
Sofia Giappichini: we simulate, anyway, our signal in that graph. So with the user model for majorana channels.
Sofia Giappichini: And we can now we, we have now updated our analysis with the winter 23 backgrounds.
Sofia Giappichini: We're currently using our integrated luminosity of 188 to burn invites.
Sofia Giappichini: So for the selection.
Sofia Giappichini: we can distinguish many same flavor. Final state where we have 2 election or 2 new ones
Sofia Giappichini: from the case when we have one electron and one new one.
Sofia Giappichini: And in these 2 cases we have slightly different Scots to optimize the
Sofia Giappichini: a reduction of the backgrounds.
Sofia Giappichini: Anyway, we mostly select the correct final state objects, and then
Sofia Giappichini: we also required to be only to reconstructed trucks.
Sofia Giappichini: and that is extremely helpful to reduce the agronic backgrounds.
Sofia Giappichini: And then we also cut on invariant mass up to the point where we have the actual signal.
Sofia Giappichini: and then there is also a cut on the momentum and missing moment 2, and finally a cut on the cosine between the laptops.
Sofia Giappichini: And yes, of course we are.
Sofia Giappichini: We are already taking the tally case into electron and nuance. So even when we have a coupling to the towel. We can always reconstruct
Sofia Giappichini: electron loans in a final state.
Sofia Giappichini: And these are the results that have based on ship-based analysis. We're using the combined tool
Sofia Giappichini: and we are selected the remote, reconstructed angular distance
Sofia Giappichini: to actually basically
Sofia Giappichini: analysis one. And
Sofia Giappichini: we can see where that we actually get quite a good significance basically equal to 5 sigma
Sofia Giappichini: for the
Sofia Giappichini: eye range or in the mixing angle.
Sofia Giappichini: And of course, for the lower masses is also preferred.
Sofia Giappichini: And that is because
Sofia Giappichini: again, we're taking the Delta as our shape.
Sofia Giappichini: And in general, we are already improving on the results from one single channel.
Sofia Giappichini: And from this is basically the
Sofia Giappichini: the situation that we are
Sofia Giappichini: for this analysis. And you can see that we only basically have events in Z to Tau, Tau.
Sofia Giappichini: and also Ll, which is basically the same signature. So as our signal.
Sofia Giappichini: So so far, we haven't basically considered whether the H. And S are displaced or not. So
Sofia Giappichini: we also wanted to look at what could be done for really displace Hms.
Sofia Giappichini: In this case we are adding to the previous selection some cats on the vertex, and we are taking the cascade of the vertex to be less than 10, just to be sure that the vertex is reconstructed properly.
Sofia Giappichini: and we also limiting the displacement of the vertex to be inside the idea tracker.
Sofia Giappichini: And finally, we apply the cuts on the impact parameter that has to be
Sofia Giappichini: higher than 0 point 55 and this basically suppresses
Sofia Giappichini: for the background events. So we are actually
Sofia Giappichini: getting into the background fee
Sofia Giappichini: zone of our signal.
Sofia Giappichini: then.
Sofia Giappichini: So from this selection, we can take the number of events of the signal that
Sofia Giappichini: are again background free.
Sofia Giappichini: And
Sofia Giappichini: yeah, in this case, of course, the
Sofia Giappichini: yes there are in white in the plots are corresponding to exactly to 0 events from our simulation.
Sofia Giappichini: Let me see that
Sofia Giappichini: we have quite a few number of events going down to
Sofia Giappichini: top links up to 10 to the minus 11, and for mass is up to around
Sofia Giappichini: 60 Gb's.
Sofia Giappichini: and to summarize everything made up plots showing body, let's say, prompt analysis.
Sofia Giappichini: or at least the Nic that doesn't actually consider the displacement of the Via text, and also
Sofia Giappichini: Hello.
Sofia Giappichini: the analysis that consider the displacement. So basically, just the number of events. And I've taken
Sofia Giappichini: for the prompt analysis.
Sofia Giappichini: the curve corresponding to 5 Sigma, and for the displays. It's for 3 events.
Sofia Giappichini: and we can see that we are
Sofia Giappichini: getting very close to the theoretical prediction for Fcc.
Sofia Giappichini: Sometimes also,
Sofia Giappichini: actually performing better. But we need to consider the fact that our module is very different from what was considered for the prediction. And also it's different compared to all the other lines that are in this plot. So
Sofia Giappichini: there are, quite a few things to keep in mind. So it's not a very like straightforward comparison.
Sofia Giappichini: But it's again, I think, very useful just to see where we actually are.
Sofia Giappichini: And that was everything for our updates. And these are yes, once again the final results, and we plan on publishing
Sofia Giappichini: a prev of the paper on Archive very soon, probably somewhere next month.
Sofia Giappichini: and you can
Sofia Giappichini: keep an eye out for a poster also on the paper that would be Fcc. Week in San Francisco. That would be presented by example.
Sofia Giappichini: And this is everything from us.
Juliette Alimena: Okay, great thanks a lot. Sophia.
Juliette Alimena: Questions.
Juliette Alimena: I have a few, but other people can go first.
Juliette Alimena: Susan.
Giacomo Polesello: So if I can, I don't find where to raise my hand.
Juliette Alimena: 1 s Giacomo. I saw Susan's hand first.
Giacomo Polesello: No, yeah. Nice. Okay. I'm trying to figure out how to.
Giacomo Polesello: And yeah.
Susan Gascon-Shotkin: Yeah, sorry. It's it's just a technical question on on the workflow. Because
Susan Gascon-Shotkin: since we're we're gonna get started. I mean what
Susan Gascon-Shotkin: it.
Susan Gascon-Shotkin: Okay.
Susan Gascon-Shotkin: did did you use?
Susan Gascon-Shotkin: I mean, are were you working within a key for Hep, or or in like a standalone mode with, you know, just like you can do with, for example, mad analysis with
Susan Gascon-Shotkin: with mad, graph, pithy aid. And Delphis, you can do that in that analysis.
Susan Gascon-Shotkin: But I'm not sure the idea detector is isn't is available there, I mean. So that's my question. How did you? What? What was your analysis? Paradigm? Technically.
Sofia Giappichini: Yeah, I mean for this final results. We did everything within fcc analysis. So following the key for app,
Sofia Giappichini: 4 months, and so on.
Sofia Giappichini: But for my master, we actually did a stand alone production also for the background. So that's something that's always possible.
Susan Gascon-Shotkin: Okay, but this whole work flow. You have on your first slide. You did this all within within
Susan Gascon-Shotkin: FCSS. SW.
Susan Gascon-Shotkin: It is already possible.
Sofia Giappichini: Yeah, I mean everything except mad graph for these signals.
Sofia Giappichini: which is, yeah, you need to do it
Sofia Giappichini: from my graph. And then everything else works within.
Susan Gascon-Shotkin: Right.
Sofia Giappichini: Yeah.
Susan Gascon-Shotkin: You can. Yes, you can generate your I mean, you can have your signal samples generated yourself from mad graph, and then you can inject them? I'm sorry these these questions probably sound ignorant. But we've been working in a standalone, this standalone mad analysis paradigm for the moment. So I just wanna make sure this is what I wanted to know, so I can see that it's possible, and then we can.
Susan Gascon-Shotkin: I'll try to do it that way as as well.
Susan Gascon-Shotkin: Okay, thanks. Thanks a lot.
Juliette Alimena: Okay. Great. Jack, ma.
Giacomo Polesello: So, going to the last slide, are you.
Sofia Giappichini: Yes.
Giacomo Polesello: It's not clear to me.
Giacomo Polesello: Eat
Giacomo Polesello: because the the Green Line
Giacomo Polesello: film
Giacomo Polesello: oh, Marco drivers and Company
Giacomo Polesello: is A
Giacomo Polesello: is the age is the whole decay of the channels.
Giacomo Polesello: So it's a
Giacomo Polesello: it's very, very, very surprising
Giacomo Polesello: that you get
Giacomo Polesello: at the end of 2030 jive. You you get
Giacomo Polesello: half an order of magnitude better, with only the Neptonic decay.
Giacomo Polesello: So you you create, you say the Co. Correctly that you have the you have the mixing, but you have a different kind. It's like a different kind of model. But here you are, summing over all the things. But if you have a single coupling to you. Mu, the total number should be the same. If
Giacomo Polesello: if you're using the same.
Giacomo Polesello: it's if you're using the same. Do you have my Joanna blah blah blah!
Giacomo Polesello: So I'm extremely surprised, and in the
Giacomo Polesello: perhaps would be useful actually having your Madras cards and
Giacomo Polesello: cause every time you're doing the jet to jet, which is
Giacomo Polesello: which is 50% of the of the total transaction, not 10%. We get something which is actually somewhat worse than the lines of Marco dialysis
Giacomo Polesello: correctly so
Giacomo Polesello: so
Giacomo Polesello: will be really
Giacomo Polesello: in order to make sense of this plot.
Giacomo Polesello: you really would be
Giacomo Polesello: necessary to
Giacomo Polesello: to see what is the model.
Sofia Giappichini: I mean, the model is basically the same one
Sofia Giappichini: I mean, beside adding guanic channels and all the couplings, I'm not doing anything different than
Sofia Giappichini: the useful.
Giacomo Polesello: But then it doesn't. Then it's very, very surprising, because that's a 3 events from Mark. I think the the green line
Giacomo Polesello: probably young is connected, and he has a
Giacomo Polesello: and he has worked on that as well. So.
Matteo Presilla: But but the cross section is different, right? Because we are using in a situation in which there is a
Matteo Presilla: a resonant announcement of the cross section due to the very close mass of the 2 Avenue Neutrinos high in States. So
Matteo Presilla: that that's hard to say one to one. What is the ratio of the cross section between the 2 type of
Matteo Presilla: you know, actors, models, let's say.
Giacomo Polesello: Yeah. But but then, okay, we don't want to rely corresponding to that cross section, I think, because but you can. You can. You can probably produce it to yourself, and then.
Matteo Presilla: Yeah, that was just, you know, to to have a site in a parameter space which is some somewhat reconcilable to another type of model. But in the in the more general statement, in the more general, let's say, scenario, this is not the right parameter space for our more general model.
Sofia Giappichini: The lip.
Matteo Presilla: Some sense. So that's a a subspace of the model. So.
Giacomo Polesello: We are. So we are seeing you. You're gaining. So what? You're gaining much more than a factor of 2 on the standard model we're using, you mean.
Matteo Presilla: I'm not sure how much we are gaining, because we will not.
Giacomo Polesello: Because, we're looking at this plot. It kind of looks like that.
Giacomo Polesello: because the the green line is 2 events, and the year you are
Giacomo Polesello: big factor
Giacomo Polesello: above it.
Matteo Presilla: I don't know. We, we have to check it. I mean, it's it's hard to to make a statement by eye on this 2 types of models.
Giacomo Polesello: Yeah, so it would be. It could be actually useful. Because then to to compare with the result with the jet project.
Giacomo Polesello: Actually. And
Giacomo Polesello: it's also it would make it would, making
Giacomo Polesello: the management much incredibly happy, because if the C. So Lion stays in the same place
Giacomo Polesello: with this kind of cross section we get to the Sisal line, and Patrick would jump on it so.
Matteo Presilla: No, but that that I understand your point on the optimism of this message. But one of the cross checks that Sophia did for for our master thesis was exactly to try to match our parameter space to the one of the previous work published in the I think that was a no mass paper by by Juliet and one of the students in Oops, I think.
Matteo Presilla: and there was a kind of a almost one-to-one matching of the exclusion limits from.
Matteo Presilla: let's say, Sophia's model and Juliet's
Matteo Presilla: model. That is one of the papers that are shown in every conference. So
Matteo Presilla: in in that case. That was the possibility of, you know.
Matteo Presilla: matching back the result to to one that is already approved and validated. We did
Matteo Presilla: the Fcc operation, let's say.
Giacomo Polesello: But it is 3 events. So there you are, the 3 events, because you don't go. Yeah, you assume that the background gets to be. Oh, which is correct.
Giacomo Polesello: So it would. It would be really useful also for for our jet to jet analysis, to to get
Giacomo Polesello: to get the cards for your model, if you can give them.
Giacomo Polesello: because then we
Giacomo Polesello: we should be better just by by construction, because it's a factor
Giacomo Polesello: unless the back comes. It's more difficult to keep the background. So if you could provide those, it would be really useful.
Sofia Giappichini: Yeah, I have everything on my Github
Sofia Giappichini: fork of accessy analysis. So
Sofia Giappichini: it's definitely accessible. I will probably can share the link.
Matteo Presilla: But then but then the parameters please be be aware that they need to be gauged.
Matteo Presilla: accordingly, to the to the cross section of your process, because the
Matteo Presilla: one of the studies was exactly to you know, Cherry, pick the parameter space of the
Matteo Presilla: of the model in order to have a resonant announcement.
Matteo Presilla: So that's not granted that the same announcement happens to the other type of process that you're looking into.
Giacomo Polesello: No, I'm thinking, at the same.
Giacomo Polesello: Yeah. But the the announcement is the for the cross section, the the branch infractions stay the same, or they change.
Matteo Presilla: And
Matteo Presilla: no, that that
Matteo Presilla: should be the same. Yeah.
Giacomo Polesello: And then, okay, then then, when I go into jets, function gave Factor 5 into section in a cross section by bunchy ratio.
Giacomo Polesello: So it would be very interesting to to check.
Giacomo Polesello: Because I've
Giacomo Polesello: if we have a realistic model which is even more realistic than the one we are normally using, and which gives
Giacomo Polesello: and and which gives them a lot of
Giacomo Polesello: more optimistic and more
Giacomo Polesello: nice looking result. We should move to that model, I think.
Giacomo Polesello: to some extent, also, because, as as Stefan and Jana continually tell us, the the standard single Mario, the model is not
Giacomo Polesello: is not exactly what what we should use. So.
Juliette Alimena: Okay. Sarah, yawn. Maybe one or both of you have a comment to also along this discussion, or.
Sarah Louise Williams: So I I have, I guess, a new line of discussion.
Juliette Alimena: Okay. So then. But Ian said, he does.
Jan Hajer: Yes, yes, I would. So.
Juliette Alimena: So let's go to yon, and then we go back to Sarah. Sorry, Sarah.
Jan Hajer: The same. Yeah, I must must also say that I'm quite surprised about the shape.
Jan Hajer: So especially so if you look at the green line. So it's not the most optimistic line. The most optimistic line which assumes like one or 3 events, actually basically touches a Cso line. But the general shape of the green line is defined by the geometry of the of the of the detector. So the the right hand side is basically given by the minimal distance cut you you apply for your analysis.
Jan Hajer: and the drop off on the right hand side is is actually exponentially so if you just a slight improvement to the right in this plot
Jan Hajer: would corresponds to a massive improvement in the Cross section, and you are quite a lot
Jan Hajer: to the right of the green line so, and and the shape differ. So this is yeah, for me, it's surprising. I I I would love to know what what's happening there because the green line is obviously very naive. It's done by by us. And but the the input is trivial. It's just on the right hand side. It's a minimum distance cut on the left hand side. It's a maximum size. You you can still reconstruct vertices, and both of
Jan Hajer: in both sides. You're better than than what we assumed you can do, which is great. But I don't really understand how it's happening.
Sofia Giappichini: I I mean to be honest. I don't know either, exactly, but I mean I've
Sofia Giappichini: from here. You can see I have quite a few 3 constrained on the maximum displacements, and so on. So.
Jan Hajer: Yeah. For example, the minimal distance cuts in the green line.
Susan Gascon-Shotkin: Come on!
Jan Hajer: But I think not only 0 but back. Then we were convinced that we should use the extra distance, so there might be a difference, or there is definitely difference. But still you're you're much better than what the green line predicts. And so I'm I'm happy if it's true it. I'm happy about it, but I don't understand. There's the overall shape of of your reside.
Giacomo Polesello: No, but they are using a young. They are using the Co. The actual distance because they require a constructed vertex. So this is in the simulation of idea.
Jan Hajer: But this, this is what particip also input in the green line. The actual distance.
Juliette Alimena: Actually along these lines, why don't you just make a minimum and a maximum cut on XY. For example, a, and even Z. Rather than introducing a new variable. Do do 0.
Sofia Giappichini: That's because for did 0, the backgrounds are much more
Sofia Giappichini: constrain, let's say, because for if I had to cut on
Sofia Giappichini: Alex. XY. And even ZI will have to cut for around
Sofia Giappichini: 1 or so on, so that would probably cut more events.
Juliette Alimena: So you're saying this way, you save more signal.
Sofia Giappichini: Yeah. Every message on the back end.
Juliette Alimena: Okay.
Juliette Alimena: okay, interesting.
Giacomo Polesello: Do do. 0 in this case is the the is, the part is the smallest in impact parameter of one of one of the mules.
Sofia Giappichini: No, it's for both of the laptops.
Giacomo Polesello: It is both of the laptops, I mean. I think he's not to the input parameter of a single talk that this year.
Sofia Giappichini: Yeah, but I I have a class that defines.
Sofia Giappichini: That is the time for both of the.
Giacomo Polesello: Yeah.
Sofia Giappichini: Button.
Giacomo Polesello: Then you ask for the minimum to be valid to the minimum, to be larger.
Giacomo Polesello: something like that.
Giacomo Polesello: If you have to let.
Juliette Alimena: Understood that Sophia is cutting on on both.
Sofia Giappichini: Laptop. Yes.
Giacomo Polesello: So, yeah, okay, which means that the minimum is, yeah. Okay, fine.
Juliette Alimena: Okay, Sarah.
Sarah Louise Williams: Hi, great. Yeah, thanks a lot. Sophia, for the talk, and I'm really sorry that some of this might have been discussed in previous meetings.
Sarah Louise Williams: However, I think I have a few technical questions, and if it's quicker for us to follow up on these offline before you publish that fine by me?
Sarah Louise Williams: so I guess the first is, why did you choose 180 inverse at the bonds for your luminosity? Because, if I remember, is that the just, the standard one that's used for all the other studies.
Sofia Giappichini: I mean to be honest right now, I find it very confusing, because there are a lot of numbers being thrown around. And
Sofia Giappichini: basically, I just 180, because it's the minimum of 90% to burn. But for for Ips, which I think it's the standard baseline right now. But
Sofia Giappichini: it doesn't actually make a huge difference
Sofia Giappichini: in the end between 150 and 180.
Sarah Louise Williams: Yeah, cause, I guess naively, if I'm wanting to overlay lots of things, it would be nice up to make sure we're all clear about
Sofia Giappichini: Oh, yeah.
Sarah Louise Williams: You know, either the impact of the integrated luminosity, or, you know, if things are actually considering different integrated luminosities.
Sarah Louise Williams: and I guess my second main technical question is, if you've looked at the background that you're using, and if we're really confident that we're definitely cutting away all the backgrounds or just running out of statistics.
Sarah Louise Williams: So I know that John who's been working with on his masters, project with me in Cambridge, has been thinking a lot about this.
Sarah Louise Williams: but if I look at the cut you're applying
Sarah Louise Williams: I it looked like they're tight enough
Sarah Louise Williams: that we'd go way beyond where we run out of statistics for the background samples.
Sofia Giappichini: I I didn't find it to be the case, like.
Sofia Giappichini: of course, there are
Sofia Giappichini: fewer events, some sometimes, for like the environment mass and the momentum. But it's not definitely like
Sofia Giappichini: There are still a few events, anyway, so.
Sarah Louise Williams: Yeah, I guess I think what I'm worrying about is if we've looked at enough distribution to check that, we're not just picking up statistical.
Sofia Giappichini: Errors.
Sarah Louise Williams: On the background samples
Sarah Louise Williams: and again, probably we don't have the plots in this presentation to check it, but I I think
Sarah Louise Williams: as we move towards the kind of final sets of results we're going to be looking at for the feasibility study. I think. You know, whenever we make statements of. Here's our projected sensitivity based on the fact that we're going to have 0 background. And then we exclude all the signal that's above a particular threshold.
Sarah Louise Williams: I think for the once 23 sample, we just need to check the limitations. Because if that is how tow is. And I think like that's the Bb, then the effective luminosity of the sample is really small
Sarah Louise Williams: compared to a hundred 80 inverse at bonds.
Sarah Louise Williams: So again, I'm I'm happy to eyeball these numbers off off offline. But I think I think
Sarah Louise Williams: When this all gets written up it would be good if we could have a, you know, for all the different results and different channels we're doing for this. It would be good for us to have a kind of
Sarah Louise Williams: tabulation or a document where we've checked that with the the conclusions we're making based on background statistics are are similar.
Juliette Alimena: Yeah. And indeed, along these lines, I wanted to to ask Sophia if you could provide, not just the list of cuts, but also like a cut flow for each of your background samples and a couple of representative signal samples. Because I I have the same concern that that Sarah does
Juliette Alimena: about the background. Statistics.
Sofia Giappichini: Oh, yeah, of course. So I have, all the plus and the crop flow saved somewhere else. But yeah.
Sarah Louise Williams: And I don't want to generate lots of extra work for you. So if this is something we can help with, drop me an email offline. And we can have a look at it, but also very little things like
Sarah Louise Williams: if we're doing jet requiring in Scc analysis.
Sarah Louise Williams: making sure we have a record of what that reclustring was used, what the vertex selections are.
Sarah Louise Williams: Because, my worry is that otherwise we're going to have lots of overlaid plots
Sarah Louise Williams: that might be based on different versions of Sdc. Analysis and different background campaigns, all of which have different limitations and features.
Sarah Louise Williams: So making sure that we've got them noted down and tracked. And yeah, we've got some things, as Juliet says, that we can compare to would be nice.
Sarah Louise Williams: And yeah, if we can do this before you finish all of this up so that we can, you know, help run things through and check it quickly. That would be great.
Juliette Alimena: Okay. Great.
Sofia Giappichini: Hmm.
Juliette Alimena: I fear that I don't know how to say your name, so
Juliette Alimena: zhou zhen wu.
Xunwu Zuo: Yes, yes, sir, jump in. Yeah. A few more comments re following Sarah's comments, I think. As for the background. Yes, indeed, it will be very nice for us to to provide all this, all those numbers, and it makes sense to, to, to, to basically convince other people. But just to reassure you a little bit. So I think the backgrounds are fine in a sense that
Xunwu Zuo: so we we are actually considering 2 cases for the final results. One is for the non displaced dial up cases, and one is for displaced for the non displaced. We were actually quite conservative in terms of background rejection. So basically, we stopped whenever background is starting to get too low.
Xunwu Zuo: there will be plots that show we do have some backgrounds in in those selections, and from that we can actually extract reasonable significance estimates.
Xunwu Zuo: And then for the displaced cases, indeed, we are running really low on statistics. But this is kind of a
Xunwu Zuo: for the moment. It's kind of an unsolvable problem, because we only have, like 500 million Z 2 Bb backgrounds and for other quarks, and it's just unrealistic to generate like billions of events.
Xunwu Zuo: So for those cases, we're only putting the number of expected signals and not saying anything on backgrounds.
Xunwu Zuo: So I think in terms of the results or conclusions. We're not
Xunwu Zuo: going to aggressive.
Xunwu Zuo: I hope this would reassure you a little bit on on the on conclusions we're making.
Sarah Louise Williams: Yeah. So I think, can I? If can I just make one final comment, which is that I'm pretty sure if you work out the average background weight
Sarah Louise Williams: for a lot of the winter. 23 samples. If you're normalizing to a reasonable, integrated luminosity, the weight of a single background event is, you know, sometimes can be of the order of a thousand or something.
Xunwu Zuo: Yeah, exactly.
Sarah Louise Williams: So the worry I have is that even if you're so, if you're cutting conservatively and your background error is route in where and it's related to the background weight. Then you're gonna have a massive, effective background and certainty. If you're doing your stats.
Xunwu Zuo: Oh.
Xunwu Zuo: kind of I think I don't I? I don't remember the exact numbers, but I think I think for the non displaces in the end we do still have a
Xunwu Zuo: on the order of hundreds of background events in Monte Carlo.
Xunwu Zuo: So if we scale that by luminosity the the estimate on the statistical uncertainty is kind of reasonable, I would say.
Xunwu Zuo: because it's not really cutting low on in terms of the the raw number of events.
Xunwu Zuo: baggy.
Sarah Louise Williams: Okay.
Xunwu Zuo: Yeah, but we'll provide all the details to you.
Sarah Louise Williams: And have a look at the numbers.
Xunwu Zuo: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sarah Louise Williams: And in particular check that everyone who's using the same samples is making the same set of conclusion
Sarah Louise Williams: with the caveat of the limited Monte Carlo. Statistics.
Xunwu Zuo: Yes. Thanks.
Juliette Alimena: Okay. Great. Jeremy.
Juliette Alimena: Jeremy.
Gaelle Sadowski: Yeah. Sorry. Finally, like a video.
Gaelle Sadowski: because the generating line of Monte Carlo, of course. Can you hear me?
Gaelle Sadowski: You can. Can you hear me.
Juliette Alimena: Yes.
Gaelle Sadowski: Okay. Sorry, Jennigan of Monte Carlo would not work 1 one thing as a cross check. It's not very
Gaelle Sadowski: robust, but I think, and give an idea that if you estimate the
Gaelle Sadowski: the selection efficiency of the background separately of each coat.
Gaelle Sadowski: assuming they are not correlated, which is probably not the case.
Gaelle Sadowski: but it gives you, an order of magnitude, of the selection, efficiency, and and individually.
Gaelle Sadowski: with all the multicolou you have, and you multiply all of those.
Gaelle Sadowski: and it should give you an idea of the selection efficiency that you might have at the end of the day.
Gaelle Sadowski: Yeah, I don't know if you see what I mean? So it might.
Xunwu Zuo: Yes, sir. Sorry. Please continue.
Gaelle Sadowski: It could, it could be 100% uncertainty. But it's better than probably than having the all multicultural background. After the 2 selection comes.
Gaelle Sadowski: Oh.
Xunwu Zuo: I think that assumes that all the cuts are uncorrelated
Xunwu Zuo: which is not necessarily chewing. In this case.
Gaelle Sadowski: Probably, as I said, it's probably not the case. My point is that it's
Gaelle Sadowski: more correct than having no Monte Carlo. In fact, this is my assumption. Maybe it's wrong actually, but that would be my guess.
Xunwu Zuo: No, I get your point. I get your point, but I think we're going to. The other direction is we always make sure there are still Monte Carlo. We're not running all of it.
Xunwu Zuo: So so the costs are actually quite conservative.
Gaelle Sadowski: At at which, yeah, good flow is really the thing to see, because at some point
Gaelle Sadowski: with the horse, of course, at some point. If you get no Monte Carlo at all doesn't mean that you should not have some.
Gaelle Sadowski: Yeah. If if you hit all the Monte Carlo, it's maybe just that you don't generate it enough to see some.
Gaelle Sadowski: yeah, it is the old point over here, but if I get it right.
Xunwu Zuo: Yep, thanks, thanks, noted.
Xunwu Zuo: Thank you.
Juliette Alimena: Okay. Sarah.
Sarah Louise Williams: Just the the final comment on this on this point, which again, I think is probably beyond the scope of what you want to publish.
Sarah Louise Williams: But
Sarah Louise Williams: We there are prototypes of this Monte Carlo filtering in.
Sarah Louise Williams: and one thing that hopefully we could do, once we find the remaining things out would be to write a filter that corresponds to what you're doing, and just for your main background
Sarah Louise Williams: make a small filtered sample and satisfy ourselves that really, you know, you wouldn't be getting any events.
Sarah Louise Williams: So again, it's not it's not ultimately the best we could do. But we could use the new filtering framework to at least check that.
Sarah Louise Williams: We're not, you know. It's not just a running out of Monte Carlo. Statistics issue.
Xunwu Zuo: Okay for for the filtering, you're referring to filtering of the decay modes, right? Or is there actually a more gen generic filter that you can actually apply, for example, that's
Xunwu Zuo: aligns more with the the the eventiest selection we're using here. So we can actually get more effective luminosity.
Sarah Louise Williams: Yeah. So I think I mean the the filters that I mean, John has been playing with some filters that would be specific to the h and l to ll new new channel as well, so I think
Sarah Louise Williams: some of the filters he's been playing with might be relevant. Of course
Sarah Louise Williams: we were using the simplified model case. So we're only looking at electrons and muons. But you could easily write some generic tree based filter that was targeting your events, towel, sample.
Sarah Louise Williams: and just use that to check
Sarah Louise Williams: if it really is a running out of stats, or if you really have no background, events.
Xunwu Zuo: Okay, okay?
Xunwu Zuo: So so I guess. If you could send, send us some information on the filters, and how how to
Xunwu Zuo: even even better examples on how to use them. Maybe we can. We can do those
Xunwu Zuo: quick checks and see.
Sarah Louise Williams: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. A again, we'd have to check exactly what's currently working. Because I know there were a few final hurdles on the filtering side.
Xunwu Zuo: Okay. Okay.
Sarah Louise Williams: Technically. But as in, I think I think once we overcome those, we should be able to do these steps. And I think between everyone
Sarah Louise Williams: testing this functionality and using it to check the statements we're making would be really nice.
Xunwu Zuo: Thanks, thanks.
Juliette Alimena: Okay, great. I had a question or 2 or 2. A lot of mine have already been covered, but on slide
Juliette Alimena: 7, just a small request.
Sofia Giappichini: Yes.
Juliette Alimena: Yeah, since actually, there's a couple of
Juliette Alimena: of theory estimates for the Fcc. I think it'd be helpful if you could put the at least like the archive reference actually directly on the plot. Because, I mean, in addition, it'd be helpful if you had the the references for for all of these lines in in the the figure caption. But I think this one in particular. It. It'd be useful if we made sure that that anyone looking at this plot
Juliette Alimena: even without the caption it like in a talk, would be clear. On which theory curve you're talking about.
Sofia Giappichini: Yeah, I mean for this one. I think it was taken from the Isomas paper.
Sofia Giappichini: or, yeah, the lp, as long. But yeah, I can definitely
Sofia Giappichini: was it also in the in the dropdown side.
Matteo Presilla: Yeah, if I if I can add something on this, I I'm not really showing when I include this this summary plot in in the in the draft, let's say, because this was like
Matteo Presilla: a very last minute comparison, because we wanted to have a feeling of the mass range and the couplings that we would have.
Matteo Presilla: you know, achieved with this search. But that's not really clear that we can
Matteo Presilla: overlay our curves to that one. So we need to to check detail. Okay? So that was a really, really.
Matteo Presilla: when I say, last minute, it was really last minute overlay to have a look on what happens. But we need to to be sure that we are checking the right somebody block, because, for instance, also in Cms, we've had a lot. I I was in the H. And L. Summary paper.
Matteo Presilla: and we've had a lot of issues in in checking the right panel for making the summers, and so on. So that's not like 100% sure that we can use it and overlaid as it is, and also in in the, you know.
Matteo Presilla: face pace that we got out and matched it to that one. So yeah, we're checking that like
Matteo Presilla: out of time and see.
Juliette Alimena: Okay, okay, sure.
Juliette Alimena: and maybe my, my last final comment is, especially since they're they're not connected to this meeting the conveners, I'm not sure have seen your results, so I think it'd be helpful if you could give a presentation in one of the next physics and performance meetings, if possible, before you before you publish
Juliette Alimena: because I really think they would want to have a look and not be surprised, because, you know you are using Fcc analysis and the whole whole framework. So technically, I think it should be you should at least get their their sign off. If not, you know, sort of more formal approval.
Juliette Alimena: Course, we're not in, you know, full
Juliette Alimena: not like Cms, but or or any other experiment Internet review. But.
Matteo Presilla: Yeah. So we we just didn't know anything about the this, this structure of the meetings, because we we started with everything private
Matteo Presilla: because we we didn't want like really to make the Cms routine of bureaucracy. But I understand that something is needed because we are using central background. So that's okay.
Matteo Presilla: Okay, great.
Giacomo Polesello: Thank you, Juliet, with my head of convener. I wanted exactly to say the same thing.
Giacomo Polesello: because there is no real to my understanding, because I'm most interested in publishing things, and to my understanding there is no no real use, but clearly as a minimum you should contact
Giacomo Polesello: Emmanuel and and Patricia, and
Giacomo Polesello: and tell them
Giacomo Polesello: not sure. Do you need that to go to a the formal approval as a as an internal note, but that
Giacomo Polesello: but I I think if more and more people coming and do these kind of things. So we let we will need that to. They will set up something like that, and there is already a very formal process for approving the notes, for instance.
Giacomo Polesello: which we were using for the midterm report.
Giacomo Polesello: So we will. So in
Giacomo Polesello: definitely please, contact
Giacomo Polesello: and manual in between. Yeah, that.
Juliette Alimena: Yeah. And Michaela now is joining them.
Giacomo Polesello: And Michaela, yeah, that is Michaela in addition. Now. Yes.
Juliette Alimena: If you need any emails, just send me a note I can.
Sofia Giappichini: No, it's it's fine. We will definitely do that.
Matteo Presilla: Was also included in the very first exchanges since the very beginning. So yeah, we keep going.
Juliette Alimena: Excellent, any other any final comments or questions, because we're coming up on the the end of the hour.
Juliette Alimena: Okay, I don't see any thanks so so much.
Juliette Alimena: Great work for actually for for both presenters. Thanks so much.
Juliette Alimena: Thanks. Everyone for joining, and we'll see you probably. June sixth.
Sarah Louise Williams: Thanks. Everyone.
Juliette Alimena: Thank you. Bye.
Sofia Giappichini: Lane.
Matteo Presilla: Bye.