WH10NW- West Wing: Just waiting for a couple of minutes. People check on online or in person.
WH10NW- West Wing: Okay, I suspect we've never studied new people connected. And people here in the room. Some of you may already know, Michael. Yeah, we're gonna hear from Michael about accelerator and team instrumentation with mace which might be new for certainly for me. And it's gonna be new for a lot of us calling from Cms.
WH10NW- West Wing: okay, let's see, working just a quick audio check. I guess folks on zoom
WH10NW- West Wing: you all can follow us and see the slides right.
Lawrence Lee Jr: Yeah, it's great.
WH10NW- West Wing: Perfect. Yeah, give me my second.
WH10NW- West Wing: Excuse me.
WH10NW- West Wing: Okay, I don't think I have 2 whole hours of material. But with that being said,
WH10NW- West Wing: upfront I'm open with. I'm open to questions and interruptions, if anything that makes me more comfortable, because not even I like to listen to me talk for that long
WH10NW- West Wing: but little bit of background on me. We'll get to the topic here in a second. But
WH10NW- West Wing: Here's the alphabet soup that describes my coordinates. I'm an associate scientist in the accelerator Directorate Beams Division target Systems Department. That does mean that I've never been on the Lhc.
WH10NW- West Wing: so we probably speak a different language. I tried to make this general, but that means that in order to understand what I'm doing, we're going to have to go through some different physics than you're used to. I hope that's a good thing.
WH10NW- West Wing: This is something that is going to be ideally used at mu 2 e. So I'm going to describe that for probably about half the talk, because if you don't understand that unique environment of Mu to E, the rest of it is probably not going to make a whole lot of sense, and what I'm trying to do. So I want to talk about flavor as a science driver. This is language from snow mask. What that means, what we're doing. Why, then, eventually charge left on flavor violation.
WH10NW- West Wing: the Mutu experiment itself. And then, ideally, that's all to get to what we're doing down here, which is fermilab protons to mutually nuance. That's my job. That's where I live. So that's what I'm going to talk about.
WH10NW- West Wing: The middle part of actually probably the last, I'd say 3rd ish
WH10NW- West Wing: a little bit more than that is going to be about the Ascarian effect in ace, which is in the title itself. So a little bit of an intro and a brief history of what that is and what it means. Then I'm gonna talk about Ace, which I did not choose. The fact that this overlaps with acceler complex evolution and Fermilab. That's not what it is. I'm sorry everyone likes that word, but we're stuck with it. And then eventually
WH10NW- West Wing: the roadmap is all this is gonna talk about beam intensity, monitoring and Youtube. That's the main purpose. That's what I'm trying to do. And then because we're all really here for things in the future. I'm gonna try and talk a little bit to flavor this, not flavor physics, but flavor this towards what we can do about beyond me 2 in the future.
WH10NW- West Wing: So I threw this in here mostly to not say myself. But say, my collaborators, who are working with me, that this is still highly experimental and a work in progress. I'm glad that people are interested, and they've all invited me to give this talk as an excuse to, you know, blabber on about things that nobody knows about. But keep in mind that in posterity don't skip this slide. If you're reading offline or this, if you're seeing this in the future. This is still experimental. Hopefully give a talk to show
WH10NW- West Wing: all the the smashing results. But for now this is just for fun.
WH10NW- West Wing: So Clfv. And New Tweet.
WH10NW- West Wing: We have to go all the way back to the original source of information is that we, as we all know, original information is from Twitter
WH10NW- West Wing: back in 1937. Ravi tweeted. Consider the Muon, whoever ordered that and the reason I ordered it that way and not ordered that is, that if you go back as far as you can, there's a there's a certain memo from 1966, where he's quoted as saying, Consider the Muon, whoever ordered that. But this is relevant because this was actually the discussion of building G minus 2 storage ring that would eventually be used at Brookhaven that eventually made its way here.
WH10NW- West Wing: Why is that relevant? Well.
WH10NW- West Wing: 90 years later, flavor still eludes us. We don't really understand the nature of flavor. We know that there are flavors, but not really what that means in any deep sense.
WH10NW- West Wing: So in Snowmass, the rare precision physics frontier, which is where I live the Rpf.
WH10NW- West Wing: Conveyors recommended that the physics of our furniture needs a new what they call p. 5. Driver. If that's an old language that doesn't make any sense. I explain what that means in a minute. But that was the language of the old. P. 5. Specifically for the physics of flavor. What is flavor? What is it?
WH10NW- West Wing: Why, where does it come from? What implications that have for really the rest of physics? There's lots of different ways to do that. But experiments. Investigating charge left on flavor, violation and left on number violation in muons are integral components of our exploration of mass scales.
WH10NW- West Wing: And then here is, if you go to p. 5, recent one, and you go to 5.2 under extraordinary paradigms in physics. 5.1 is about is a little bit about the Higgs flavor shows up 13 times of this entire page of 12 times, and it's all under here. So this is where we live in this region. P. 5. Pretty far away from.
WH10NW- West Wing: you know, neutrinos and dark matter, and even Higgs stuff itself. But we exist, I promise.
WH10NW- West Wing: And the reason it's relevant is this is this is taken from a European strategy physics, briefing book from 2,019, where some people calculated. There's some assumptions here. There's some effective field theory that I'm not going to particularly go over because I didn't do it, and a lot has changed since then that if you do some expansions for for different
WH10NW- West Wing: but I'm a logical considerations. All these different
WH10NW- West Wing: processes are sensitive to new physics
WH10NW- West Wing: at the this is a TV. So there's 1 at least. He lives down here. A lot of your top physics stuff lives, and indirect physics for
WH10NW- West Wing: lept ons
WH10NW- West Wing: can get upwards of 10 to the 4, 10 to the 5 te sensitivity. So again, understanding that I'm in an Llc. Audience, this is the the language. I hope you can agree on that. This is why it's useful. It probes math skills that you can't really get with direct searches. We'll get more into. Why, that is here in a second. But that's just to set the stage
WH10NW- West Wing: so
WH10NW- West Wing: that guides us from not just flavor physics, but the hunt for charge left on flavor violation. Here's some physics that you all could probably calculate, but you probably haven't thought about it. Much
WH10NW- West Wing: curiosity of flavor extends from the fact that if you stare at the picture of the standard model which everyone's seen a million times charged. Leptons are the only fermions where we haven't observed flavor violation at all. Right, quartz makes via the Ckm. That's pretty easy and importantly, neutrinos oscillate.
WH10NW- West Wing: It used to be that charge left on flavor. Violation was kind of like searching for proton decay doesn't have to happen, but if it did, it had serious implications.
WH10NW- West Wing: But neutrino oscillations actually make it so. That charge left on flavor violation is required. When you have neutrino masses. This diagram is now possible. A muon can decay to a W neutrino that neutrino can oscillate. The W can radiate a photon. You get an electron on the other side, no neutrinos in the final state. Muon electron photon.
WH10NW- West Wing: This will be relevant minute gamma. This is possible to write down the diagram
WH10NW- West Wing: do some calculations and summation rules.
WH10NW- West Wing: and you see that this quantity scales with the the neutrino mass difference
WH10NW- West Wing: over the mass of the W
WH10NW- West Wing: squared squared to the 4th power. So the probability of this happening with Alpha and Pi involved is less than 10 to the minus 54.th So it has to happen, because we all know from quantum mechanics. That's not 0.
WH10NW- West Wing: But it can't happen even at at tree level. So what this means is that we should go measure it and see what it really is. Any experimental observation would unambiguously indicate new physics.
WH10NW- West Wing: The Muon fighter is gonna be challenging because we want to make 10 to 14 Yuans per second.
WH10NW- West Wing: We're a long way from 10 to the 54 ever.
WH10NW- West Wing: So that's 1 flavor of charge left on flavor violation. But the one that I want to focus on is new suite conversion.
WH10NW- West Wing: It's similar to Ude gamma, and that's actually showing the diagram down here. I'll get in a minute. But it's sensitive to more new physics operators, because the fact that you're forcing electron or sorry muon to interact with an atom. The basic principle is
WH10NW- West Wing: is that a muon is placed onto an atom of some kind, some species, and it enters the muonic one S state.
WH10NW- West Wing: That wave function actually overlaps with the nucleus.
WH10NW- West Wing: and it can. If, therefore, it can interact at extremely short distances.
WH10NW- West Wing: and it could convert the entirety of the Muon's rest mass
WH10NW- West Wing: into momentum into the electron minus the binding energy of the one S state.
WH10NW- West Wing: you get a monoenergetic electron on the way out. Slight differences at the 10 Kev level, depending on the species of the stopping material.
WH10NW- West Wing: But it's always the same energy, no matter what
WH10NW- West Wing: one electron 105. If you can detect that, I know, I know that's not TV. And you know, it's probably how would your backgrounds go? 10. G,
WH10NW- West Wing: I actually don't know. Is that is that about right?
WH10NW- West Wing: Okay, tiny, 100 times smaller. Yes. So very different regime of physics is is my point. So
WH10NW- West Wing: how you determine the lambda scale the mass scales of this in physics sensitu depends on what assumptions you make about the operators. So here, if you look carefully, you flip back and forth between this slide and the last slide. This could be new to be gamma. But now that gamma is capped with the nucleus that I showed before, or so that would apply the new physics, since enhancements could come just from this loop down here. It doesn't have to be neutrinos or W anymore.
WH10NW- West Wing: or you could just have
WH10NW- West Wing: all of this is a black box, and all of its new physics, and some smart, some colleagues that are theorists, and smarter than I am calculating. This stuff extrapolated that for R and Ue. We'll get to that in a minute. But that's essentially the rate the rate at which you get this electronic conversion.
WH10NW- West Wing: If you measure up to 10 to minus 17
WH10NW- West Wing: in orders of Kappa. In this.
WH10NW- West Wing: you know, if I could filter, you can get
WH10NW- West Wing: 1,000 ish, and this is where the 10,000 comes from. This is if you went to 10 to the minus 18, that'll be relevant in a little bit. But like this is the parameter space that you search for new physics, and to give away a little bit what I'm talking about, for this is the existing limits down here. So this is where me until he wants to be.
WH10NW- West Wing: This is where the limits are. Now we'll come back to that in a minute, but that's the point of what we're searching for.
WH10NW- West Wing: So it is challenge for doing that
WH10NW- West Wing: for those of you that don't know me. 2 is here. It's a Fermilab. It's right. By G minus 2. It's in the magical world of Mount Wilson Hall
WH10NW- West Wing: challenges. How do you get negative Muons? Because again, they have the the Muons have to get in the one S state of an atom. They have to be negative.
WH10NW- West Wing: How do you get mu minus from formula protons.
WH10NW- West Wing: What you do is you take the existing accelerator and you build an experiment around it. So this is what's given to us from the temperature. Basically.
WH10NW- West Wing: the Land act is 400 Mv, that's down here that's gonna be upgraded in a few years. But for now that's what we have.
WH10NW- West Wing: The Linac puts things into the into the booster.
WH10NW- West Wing: This is where actually quick. Question this. Honestly.
WH10NW- West Wing: how much of the fermilab accelerator complex you guys cover as as Cms people, I'm assuming not very much. You can be honest, I'm not going to take offense. So we've been seeing this actually, not too long ago. Good! Good! Yeah, this is, this is important, because again, I live in Ad.
WH10NW- West Wing: I have to know all this, but I also take it for granted how much that knows there any questions, let me know. So I'll walk through this. We have a meeting, if you've ever seen the proton source, the bottle of packaging, but like that
WH10NW- West Wing: that gets put through the Internet. The booster makes things called booster batches, and that's put into this region here, and it may either go to the recycler.
WH10NW- West Wing: Booster gives us 8 gb, that's here. The unit batches. Those can go either in a recycler or the main injector. The main injector.
WH10NW- West Wing: You see any experiment or anything with mi so numi minos, those kinds of pain injectors that's 120 gb, that's that's the high energy plan that goes to neutrinos. But we? It needs to be dozens of us work in the neutrinos. But several of us work with the recycler at 8 gb, that can then put
WH10NW- West Wing: yeah, that could put protons down here, where they then go into the delivery ring.
WH10NW- West Wing: where we do what's called slow extraction. I'll cover what that is in a minute and then eventually beams and U 2. So this is why I have to cover not only the physics but also the accelerator part, because eventually what we're gonna do is we're gonna be monitoring that beam in tricky ways.
WH10NW- West Wing: So this is where it all comes from. This is the last time I'm gonna talk about the parent, the global parameters, the beams. If you have questions, ask me.
WH10NW- West Wing: I'm not watching Zoom. I'm hoping you are. In case people do very optimistic about people's level of engagement here. So yeah, we're what we're gonna do now is instead of it. Here, we're this is the big picture. We're not gonna zoom in to where it says new ones, because that's obviously where I live.
WH10NW- West Wing: And then for reference
WH10NW- West Wing: Wilson Halls about here. This is Booster tower above here, and then the delivery ring is over here in G, minus 2 and new to me, or down over here on what it looks like.
WH10NW- West Wing: Okay, slow extraction. Now, there's a lot here. You're not gonna be responsible for knowing all of it. But the point is that it's as messy as it looks. So the take home is that you want to inject instability in the mean as it orphets your delivery ring.
WH10NW- West Wing: and you want to scrape off a small piece of the spill every revolution. So in the diagram, before being from the recycler, which is rebunched into what's called a spill, one single spill orbits around here.
WH10NW- West Wing: and there's something called an electrostatic septa.
WH10NW- West Wing: high voltage divider, basically what you said accepted. And a small piece of that beam goes on the other side of it, while the while the centroid passes on the inside. Just a tiny amount gets shaved off every time, and it's something like 38,000 revolutions per spill. One tiny little bit gets pulled off in an extraction line.
WH10NW- West Wing: as you can imagine. That causes the beam doesn't like anything in the way of it. That's the 1st rule of accelerate physics don't put anything in the beam.
WH10NW- West Wing: so some manipulations have to be done to keep it orbiting, but then also, so that enough of it gets extracted each time.
WH10NW- West Wing: All of that is what gives us what the U. 2 E. Target is going to see. I'm not going to talk about the target, my baby, but this is what it will see 4 times 10 to the 7 protons at 8 g. And E.
WH10NW- West Wing: The beam is about 1 calcium radius.
WH10NW- West Wing: The with the pulses are 250 nanoseconds wide.
WH10NW- West Wing: and the pulse period is determined by how long it takes for speed of light to go around this ring.
WH10NW- West Wing: that 1.7 microseconds, 2.5 megahertz. We'll talk a little bit more about this new structure here soon.
WH10NW- West Wing: So this is what happens. So every single time that the- the spill, it's at the delivery process, the electrostatic system, it falls still acceptance.
WH10NW- West Wing: We say it's 250 nanoseconds, but it is not Gaussian. It's also not fixed in time. So the width is sort of
WH10NW- West Wing: think it's something like
WH10NW- West Wing: one in 10 of the 3 are inside, or one in 10 to 3 outside of this window I have to look at.
WH10NW- West Wing: So this is what it's supposed to look like ideally. This is a lot of averages, a lot of simulation, but this is the center here 125 nanoseconds either side in a long period. Because, I said, it's about 1.7 microseconds.
WH10NW- West Wing: Nothing should be happening in there.
WH10NW- West Wing: And that's really important.
WH10NW- West Wing: So that was challenge one is, you take your protons and you hit them on a target.
WH10NW- West Wing: The second challenge is, you need to have things that are ideal from you to E
WH10NW- West Wing: mutually needs a high yield of stoppable mu minus, which means it has to be a low momentum mu minus 3,
WH10NW- West Wing: and you need a minimum amount of beam induced backgrounds. You don't want something called radiative pion capture. So if it's too energetic, pions can get all the way in onto your atom, and that's that's going to cause radiative effects that can mimic your signal because pions like to emit electrons. And you need a low radiation environment.
WH10NW- West Wing: I didn't put it up here because some of my colleagues don't like this comparison. Some do, is a lot like a dark matter experiment, extremely low, signal, extremely low background, even though we're putting theme onto it.
WH10NW- West Wing: And this is sort of the the
WH10NW- West Wing: ideal conceptualization of how me 2 is supposed to learn. So this time
WH10NW- West Wing: horizontal axis. There's a number of particles with some arbitrary normalization. Don't worry about it. This T equals 0. This is where that pulse arrived on our target. And then, ideally you want be flash or stuff that comes immediately off the target
WH10NW- West Wing: didn't get scraped junk. A little bit later you get pi on arrival. Then you get Muon arrival on the target that you want, you get this long, quiet window where the Muons can be in their one s orbit interacting with the nucleus and then eventually decay out to your electron. All of this needs to be silenced and well understood
WH10NW- West Wing: before the next pulse comes in.
WH10NW- West Wing: Any questions.
WH10NW- West Wing: Okay.
WH10NW- West Wing: so how do you build an experiment around that? Because again, everything I said before is just this is what Fermilab gives you. This is what you all ultimately want to design an experiment around.
WH10NW- West Wing: has anyone seen this picture before?
WH10NW- West Wing: Awesome? You guys do know about us. So proton beam comes from the delivery ring. It enters the production solenoid. There's a target in here. It's way too small to see because of the scale. We have a big graded field in the in the production solenoid, 4.6 tesla down to 2.5 at the entrance. Here there's a transport line
WH10NW- West Wing: which captures both the minus and B, plus that captures the wrong word guys and B plus and minus it. For that matter, there's a collimator in here. The the field separates plus and minus vertical direction. We have collimator here that allows us to choose either one case you want to run with positive particles. There's reasons. If you want.
WH10NW- West Wing: This S curve is designed to maximize momentum acceptance.
WH10NW- West Wing: This comes from the transport solenoid again, this is all. One continuous field graded down to 2. Tesla. Here there's a stopping target where we want our physics to happen. And then inside the stopping target conversion happens. We can get our Nobel Prize. The electron is kicked out inside of still a graded field, and it tends to bend slightly in the forward direction as it undergoes a helical trajectory where it's eventually detected by a tractor and a calorimeter.
WH10NW- West Wing: I'm not Mpp. These. I'm not gonna talk about these, but if you have questions I can answer them. But that's how we do it. So that there's momentum that we measure for the electron and then some energy. So you can do particle identification if we need it
WH10NW- West Wing: start to here. This doesn't capture the the Sn. Direction, but it's about 20 meters end to end, and every part of it
WH10NW- West Wing: is a crucial part of the experiment which
WH10NW- West Wing: I kind of like, because I like both sides of it. But you know, how often do you see the beam line elements and
WH10NW- West Wing: the neutrino facilities, or Cms, or that matter.
WH10NW- West Wing: So what we measure is this quantity called rwe, that I hinted at before?
WH10NW- West Wing: This is the formal way of writing the conversion signal over the number of new ones that get captured by the app.
WH10NW- West Wing: and if r mue
WH10NW- West Wing: is greater than 2 times 10 to the minus 16. That gives us 5 sigma. The reason we say it that way is because you all know statistics.
WH10NW- West Wing: If you increase your limits by 50%, maybe even a factor of 2. That's not going to give you 5 sigma, even if everything works perfectly. This is actually discovery potential, because it's an order of 10 to 4 improvement over the previous results. So this is a huge jump in sensitivity from what was available for. And it's entirely due to putting this formula
WH10NW- West Wing: in the sad scenario where you don't see anything, we could put a confidence level of 90%. If our Ue is less than that value
WH10NW- West Wing: basic question on that. So then, you said that you prefer a lower momentum view on your capture. Right? So is the- is the transfer part of this
WH10NW- West Wing: of this picture where you also collecting momentum? Or are you just yeah. So.
WH10NW- West Wing: and what is that band of momentum that you that you want? It's it's pretty broad. And the reason it's broad is because this is very complicated, solenoid as it is, this is actually 2 separate solenoids that have to meet but here, inside, so pions
WH10NW- West Wing: make it about.
WH10NW- West Wing: There's you need a boost to make it all the way in here, because the the short lifetime ions. It goes up to about 200 Mv. And nuance it's about. It's a Gaussian distribution, centered about 60 or 70 Mev. But the tails go up to 100. Mv, so it's pretty pretty broad.
WH10NW- West Wing: And the re- the reason is is that it's not a focus beam. So it's not like your low momentum stuff is in the middle of your stuff is from the outside. The size of the beam at the target is the size of a hole in the wall for this call up here right? There's no, there's no focusing. There's no you know, there hasn't been. I'm not gonna say it's not possible, because I don't think anyone's looked at it, but it is past the point of very complicated and diminishing return to try and make this more sophisticated, because even without doing that, we already get our 10 to 4.
WH10NW- West Wing: So is that kind of help? Yeah?
WH10NW- West Wing: And actually, the ones that stop in the target.
WH10NW- West Wing: you lose all the ones that are above 60 Mv. In that distribution. You want to enter the detector solenoid, so you need a low moment, but you can't make the target bigger, because you want to stop all the low momentum ones. If you put something in the way of the beam, they stop upstream. So
WH10NW- West Wing: yeah, ask me how I know about that. So we're gonna focus. Here is like, I said, this is what I care about
WH10NW- West Wing: But yeah, again, I'm happy to answer the the question with this. I'm not trying to reflect from it.
WH10NW- West Wing: There's a zoomed in picture of what the production salon looks like.
WH10NW- West Wing: It's very complicated setup. The solenoid itself is unlike any other that's been built before we have to contract it out to. People are building the solenoids for the experimental fusion reactor here. So here protons going to the same direction before
WH10NW- West Wing: there's a window here. The mean pipe comes in, interacts with the target, can't see.
WH10NW- West Wing: and it interacts in a slight
WH10NW- West Wing: offset because the the new ones we want actually go that way. So it's 14 degrees off center from the solenoidal axis. So the protons coming through here they target, and then it's not a mistake.
WH10NW- West Wing: The off axis field actually bends the beam up a little bit.
WH10NW- West Wing: and it goes to our beach stock.
WH10NW- West Wing: And so what we need is an extremely compact high Z pian production target and heightened field with backwards extraction
WH10NW- West Wing: from this complicated meeting.
WH10NW- West Wing: So everything in here is tricky to make.
WH10NW- West Wing: and it needs to be carefully understood. So.
WH10NW- West Wing: Michael, yeah, why, why backwards? Why can't you just do a forward structure.
WH10NW- West Wing: Say, Gevb, so this is mostly going to be above. So up here there's a there's a monitor for out of time being, and it's sensitive to free. Gdb, so you would, you wouldn't be able to stop the community. Number one second thing is that you're also showering tons and tons of pyons which which can create background. High energy Pyons are going to make it to a target.
WH10NW- West Wing: And if you try and shield the pions, you're gonna stop a bunch of muons, too. So this was the best way to again thinking. Dark matter, low signal, low background this way to optimize signal. Now, could future variations, especially with Pip 2,
WH10NW- West Wing: which is, gonna get a give us 800 mv, we don't have to go to 8 gb, we might be able to do something with words. Extraction.
WH10NW- West Wing: The boring answer is that even with the inefficiency backwards extraction, all this other stuff we're still getting 10 to 4 improvement
WH10NW- West Wing: that was called good enough.
WH10NW- West Wing: Could we do better? I think so. But that's not what we're planning for now. Future iterations won't certainly have to take advantage of that, because it's a very small get the exact number. But it's a very small base space, that of acceptance that actually gets the momentum, you know, it's going backwards. But it's mostly to avoid high energy stuff.
WH10NW- West Wing: because you can't stop high energy new ones with what we have, and without sacrificing the low energy mu, one that you want and pions or backgrounds also turns out another tricky background is people annihilation.
WH10NW- West Wing: Those all mostly go forward.
WH10NW- West Wing: Okay, so
WH10NW- West Wing: this is relevant now because Ps is production solenoid that's here. This is a downstream side. So this is what I talked about, for this is another detector system that's gathered up. This is 3 Gb. Of the 3 40 ev moment, except it's up here.
WH10NW- West Wing: And then this goes down to being built.
WH10NW- West Wing: So
WH10NW- West Wing: one of the things that I said a lot about the delivery ring and the beam is that it's not quite Gaussian, not quite well behaved. You have this beam. You're injecting stability into to try and make it perform well under resonant extraction.
WH10NW- West Wing: which means ideally, you'd like to measure
WH10NW- West Wing: what's actually hitting your target because this target has to survive. Remember said before, the 1st rule of accelerate physics is not to put anything in the beam. We're violating 1st world accelerate for putting something in the beam. Things don't like being in the beam. It's going to take a beating. The beam dope is going to take a beating. We'd like to be able to instrument that we have a lot of space to do it. The problem is.
WH10NW- West Wing: you have the pass through beam.
WH10NW- West Wing: the exits, the transports or production. Solenoid goes to the beam dome. Sorry, Cadman.
WH10NW- West Wing: and this is an extreme radiation environment. What goes here dies here? We say it's access by remote handling. We have robots that go in and
WH10NW- West Wing: can replace the target and stuff. But I did. You can't go in there and change implementation at 1 point someone wanted to put quartz there. The courts turns black in an hour, I think. I think, if I remember correctly, there was an instrumentation study that said someday for Fcc. Letter letter, I forget which one that you want
WH10NW- West Wing: radiation, hardness. I think it's 10 to the 17 mev equivalent neutrons per second or per square centimeter just integrated. We're sending 2010 to 20 protons per year down here.
WH10NW- West Wing: So we need something smart.
WH10NW- West Wing: This is basically what I was saying before.
WH10NW- West Wing: this is the delivery ring, right? Thanks, orbit. They're commissioning this now today.
WH10NW- West Wing: and it's messy. It's exactly as messy as it was promised. Dr. Sorry. That's delivering slow extraction in the delivery ring is new. We all we do it for switch shirt when it was running, but that's a little bit of different scenario. So it's low intensity. But this is an entirely new system.
WH10NW- West Wing: and some being specific accelerator folks said that we should expect to see up to 6 times fluctuations in pulse intensity. So easel pulse can vary intensity by, you know, 6 to 10. This is one individual spill rotating around the delivery ring, and this bar is
WH10NW- West Wing: peak intensity, integrating the number of protons for each one of those. This is nominal preliminary. Everything's preliminary. This is nominal. You get to, and this is a log plot.
WH10NW- West Wing: So this is kind of important, because if U 2 is a low signal, low background experiment, you're very sensitive to beam intensity, or Daq is sensitive to beam intensity. Our target is sensitive to beam intensity.
WH10NW- West Wing: You would like to be able
WH10NW- West Wing: to measure something here. But again, everything that goes here dies here. So that's the problem. It was a long winded, some particle physics, but not one. You're used to hearing about a lot. But that's the challenge. And I know this is about future colliders. But I have problems today, and we're going to talk about those.
WH10NW- West Wing: So keep that. I'll remind you again later, but keep that in the back of your mind that's probably not solved.
WH10NW- West Wing: hoping to solve. So now this is where the Escarian effect and ace comes in Caveat. This is a lot of borrowed material from my ace colleagues, so that means that anything that is good and impressive was them, and anything that was wrong is me. Just keep that in mind.
WH10NW- West Wing: What's the Astorian effect?
WH10NW- West Wing: Fancy way of saying train copper in the microwave, basically what it is.
WH10NW- West Wing: So in certain media, a high energy electromagnetic shower produces e plus e plus e minus imbalance, about 10 to 30% depending on model and some other things where you get more e minus. And the reason for this sounds really sophisticated. But it's just due to the fact that
WH10NW- West Wing: Compton, scattering where you have a photon hitting the electron arrest. You get a photon, an electron moving.
WH10NW- West Wing: And if you get if- if you get positrons by these by photon pair production tends to annihilate and produce more photons. So the positrons annihilate these photons, the photons that produce electrons. You just get a bit of an imbalance
WH10NW- West Wing: at wavelengths larger than the size of the charge access. So if you have a small focus enough, you hire me to do this.
WH10NW- West Wing: The Cherenkov, from individual particles cannot be resolved, and they add constructively, and it looks like a single charge. And that's what's meant to be shown. Here is the Trenkov Cone, where the small wavelengths cancel out
WH10NW- West Wing: here here, and eventually the long ones.
WH10NW- West Wing: The longer wavelengths add up. And so what you get is that total emission from individual shower particles add up up to about 10 gigahertz. I'll explain in a minute. But blah blah, blah, you get coherent microwave drink off so it's a radio signal, not an optical signal, which is nice because radio waves move through everything, whereas you don't. You don't have to worry about light collection so much.
WH10NW- West Wing: this is a well established thing. So it's named Afteran who theorized it in 1962. This was observed by Peter Gorm of Hawaii. He's the pi that I'm working with now, and David Salzberg, Ucla, so particle physicist and accelerator physicist in 2,001. They demonstrated this. Here's a picture of the
WH10NW- West Wing: of the experimental setup that they did at Slack, where they had
WH10NW- West Wing: 3 Gmv. Photons. They did this with electrons, too, and 3 picosecond point bunches so extremely high intensity, and they ran it through
WH10NW- West Wing: with just some silica sand, and then they had their excuse me.
WH10NW- West Wing: their experimental setup down here, and then most of being passed through the dump. I'm not gonna go through all the details of what exactly they did to demonstrate it. Here's some references. If you want to read up on it. I'm still learning a lot of the details of how it was 1st discovered and utilized. But point is, it's well known. And actually, when the 2023 instrumentation where these 2 guys did for what they what they discovered
WH10NW- West Wing: for them. This was particularly interesting, because for those of you who know neutrino physics at the South Pole. That's what they use to detect their signal. So how do you instrument the ice? Well, you look at radio waves from ultra high energy. Neutrinos penetrating the ice turns out ice is a pretty good dielectric for this.
WH10NW- West Wing: and it emits you need a pretty high energy, neutrino, but it emits a signal where the shower energy and the the field strength
WH10NW- West Wing: is linear across many orders of magnitude.
WH10NW- West Wing: And the nice thing about this. I didn't put this in writing.
WH10NW- West Wing: Is that? Well, yes, you can instrument 3 million cubic kilometers of South Pole.
WH10NW- West Wing: and you can detect individual neutrinos with energies greater than 10 to the 18 Ev.
WH10NW- West Wing: With sufficiently tight arrival time because of hang on some writing.
WH10NW- West Wing: Because of this effect.
WH10NW- West Wing: There's no difference between a single particle and a lot of particles arriving at the same time. It's just the integral of charge over time. What what do you call field string
WH10NW- West Wing: here?
WH10NW- West Wing: The the strength of the field that's induced by a charged particle passing through that. So, as a charged particle goes through a dielectric, you're creating a field because you have a moving particle
WH10NW- West Wing: and the strength of that field. This is a parameter that you can tune based off of the dielectric choice. So this is sort of a detector agnostic way of of deciding what you need based off of your parameters. So it's just it's just a field that's induced inside of the dialector that you're trying to read out. Because.
WH10NW- West Wing: yes, this is, I think this is,
WH10NW- West Wing: think it's the initial field rms, from, not mistaken. It's yeah. It does oscillate. This is this is the peak field strength, but I can't remember if it's Rms or peak to peak, it's 1 of those.
WH10NW- West Wing: It's a good question.
WH10NW- West Wing: But it's it's the peak field strength.
WH10NW- West Wing: And it changes linearly with shower energy.
WH10NW- West Wing: So yeah, per minute. Yeah, exactly.
WH10NW- West Wing: If it will just look for metered.
WH10NW- West Wing: Then we figures that one meter away. It's yeah. It's a bit. It's a bit of an odd unit.
WH10NW- West Wing: But you select your dielectric based off of, you know the thickness, the the index of refraction for the induced field as as a charge particle goes through it.
WH10NW- West Wing: Any questions so far, this is the new stuff. Now, I'm gonna talk about, we're gonna use it for
WH10NW- West Wing: okay, everyone's following along perfectly.
WH10NW- West Wing: So that was just the Escarian effect. This is a calorimetry experiment. So it looks like
WH10NW- West Wing: it was called a name. We don't actually use a calor imagery anymore. It was an idea at the time. It was originally designed for a timing layer possible. Fcch, because that's a level. The very forward
WH10NW- West Wing: 10 to TV would be enough to as it passes through one of these. So this is a 3 cell unit that passes through. One of these would be enough to be able to read this out on some coax cable. There's no front and electronics running coax. As long as you need to module voltage, drop and
WH10NW- West Wing: you can use standard Copper wave guides loaded with alumina Al 2 0, 3. Anyone's ever played with a spark plug. It's the white ceramic on your spark plugs.
WH10NW- West Wing: low loss, dielectric, very radiation, hard dirt cheap. You can make these things. You make millions of them for for- for less than the cost of the of. You know any of the Lhc sub detectors
WH10NW- West Wing: the aspiring radiation, the aluminum. This is just a detail on the Wave Guide itself. It's not terribly important, but it's top couple mode, which is 5 to 8 Gigahertz. That's the depending on how you design it. That's the cutoff frequency for it, and then for individual particles.
WH10NW- West Wing: The reason I'm showing all this. But, by the way, not because I need you to know this, because this is what I saw, that maybe go crap. I could use this. So if you're starting to see where this is actually useful. You're you're following along really well, but their issue is that they needed to correct, connect to cryogenic noise amplifiers, and then read out nanosecond pulses. The reason is because the thermal noise was pretty. Their amplifier was pretty close to the the signal. They're trying to get out of the
WH10NW- West Wing: of the Loaded Wave Guide. So here's a good slide. I'm not going to read all of it, but this is sort of the validation of the talk, and from the talk that I saw of that cpad 2021.
WH10NW- West Wing: So to validate their concept, they did 3 different beam tests at slack.
WH10NW- West Wing: So in 2015, 2016, 2018 bunch of papers to they saw it, and they achieved 1.2 picosecond timing resolution of of per. I think it was actually per self wasn't even in multiple coincidence, just each one of those that could actually resolve at one picosecond. And there's no Dx. And because there's no Dedx, you don't worry about radiation alerts. You just have to worry about the dielectric, constant what it is at the time.
WH10NW- West Wing: So again, you know, we're talking about light microwaves and odedx. I'm sorry particle physics.
WH10NW- West Wing: So anything else I wanted to feature on this.
WH10NW- West Wing: Yeah. So
WH10NW- West Wing: they received 3 picosecond time resolution operating at 20 kelvin for the noise figure in their this cryogenic well, no amplifiers, and there are oscilloscopes, and then later they got down putting their cryogenic amplifiers at 4, Kelvin, and they got this 1.2 picker seconds.
WH10NW- West Wing: So that was Ace Michael. Yeah, what was the so I mean? Obviously calendar is still still in the name, and it sounds like from the radio waves. It should be pretty fairly straightforward to get the the energy exactly. Why? Why not? Why they didn't stick around?
WH10NW- West Wing: Because the timing came so easily that they're just like we'll advertise it as a timing layer. But still you still, could, you still could do it? Yeah. So
WH10NW- West Wing: I didn't ask them much, because I wasn't as interested in calorimeter. But yeah, that was that was the original goal with Fort. In this talk I think there's actually advertisements of a 5 d. Calorimeter because of exactly that. It's not that they couldn't do it is that that just becomes a slightly more complicated three-dimensional problem with how you place the wave guides and then reading books. So if you had some sort of
WH10NW- West Wing: cylindrical array of that integrated and find along. Z, you could potentially do that. I think they just saw this result of things just going normal.
WH10NW- West Wing: basically just one plane, not all along the the Z axis. And they got credible timing. And they just focused on that. I still think they could use it for calorimetry, and I think they would like to. But that's not as much of my interest as it were. But I think it's still there.
WH10NW- West Wing: Yeah, there's a question on zoom, yeah, go ahead.
Roger W Rusack: Yeah. Hi, it's Roger. I have a quick question. Those results which give that nice timing signals. It was acting as a calorimeter. Or was it acting as a single particle detector, when to obtain those numbers? Is that just a single particle going through the other waveguide? Or is it a
Roger W Rusack: no.
WH10NW- West Wing: This was, it's this was slack as part of their beam line. So I suspect this was timing resolution of pulses of many electrons or photons, I forget exactly which beam line they use. Yeah, this was not. No, this is not single particle.
Roger W Rusack: Okay. So this was, you put a pulse of electrons through.
WH10NW- West Wing: Yeah, this was a. This was a pulse of
WH10NW- West Wing: either 3 or 10 gev, I don't remember exactly which. But yeah, it was. It's probably pretty similar to
WH10NW- West Wing: what they did here, because it was also at slack.
WH10NW- West Wing: So I suspect what they did. Was it the same setup? This is 3. G, let me point with my mouse. And sure online.
WH10NW- West Wing: yeah, over here on the right.
WH10NW- West Wing: 3 Gv photons, 3 picosecond bunches. I think they also did it with the electron being there as well. I forget the exact parameters. But yeah, their validation was done with. With
WH10NW- West Wing: a beam so tight pulses, lower energy.
Roger W Rusack: Right. So this is a large number of particles going through.
WH10NW- West Wing: Correct.
Roger W Rusack: And it goes through the waveguide, I presume.
Roger W Rusack: or normal, to the axis of the waveguide.
WH10NW- West Wing: Yeah. So here, the 3, you can kind of see the gaps. This is one channel. This is the second channel. This is the 3rd channel. And here's 3 readouts for for each of them how they decide to do it. I remember I haven't taken one of these apart to know it. Intimately. But yeah, this, this is 3 modules, and it's the beam should be coming left to right.
Roger W Rusack: Okay, and the and the mode it couples to is determined by the shape of the the waveguide and the dielectric.
WH10NW- West Wing: Correct. Yeah. So this one is is just the te 1 0 mode, just standard rectangular way to go.
Roger W Rusack: Yeah, okay.
WH10NW- West Wing: Yep.
WH10NW- West Wing: that's everything I wanted to cover there. Any other questions we're gonna go to. We're gonna go to the weird stuff, the experimental stuff. Now.
WH10NW- West Wing: okay, Mace, it's not this.
WH10NW- West Wing: not undoubtedly. So here's my promise reminder. This is what our pulses ideally look like.
WH10NW- West Wing: Here's this, is this, is this isn't even reality. This isn't even with measured out of the out of the delivery ring yet. That's still ongoing now. But this is, if you just take lessons learned from resident attraction everywhere, and hope hope to pretend you understand it well enough. These are the fluctuations that you get.
WH10NW- West Wing: and we want to know how much beam hits the target and the dump.
WH10NW- West Wing: Everything that goes here dies here. Okay, we're caught back up. So the question that I had to the Ace people which I was lucky enough to know them from graduate school, because I went to graduate school, Hawaii
WH10NW- West Wing: and I asked them if you had these Vm. Parameters. Would you see it with Ace? Would it work? Because, again.
WH10NW- West Wing: if quartz doesn't work? Yeah, everyone likes to use Lgas. But eventually those are going to break if you put them in a proton beam, can you actually do something? That is, that has a pedigree of being used at accelerators and doesn't rely on, you know. Charge, drift, or complicated physics going on inside of them.
WH10NW- West Wing: So here's the parameters, 4 times 10 to the 7 protons for pulse at 8 Dv. Onto the target. What goes past the target? A little messy. But let's just let's just assume that, for now it's an unusual time. These are actually the notes from Hawaii. They're like, are you serious about this? And so this is them, repeating it back to me. Pulse with 250 nanoseconds repeating every 1.6 microseconds.
WH10NW- West Wing: We can do it between the production target and the dump. And most importantly
WH10NW- West Wing: limited service options for detectors must be extremely radiation hard for many months, or even several years. The reason being is, I'm I'm hoping is kind of obvious is that yes, we do have remote handling of a robot that can come in, open up the production solenoid service. Some things if we want, but if the remote handling robot is there, we can't run the into the experiment. So what you ideally want to do is all your maintenance has to be contained to the summer shutdowns of Fermilab. That's the only time you get for free. So can we design something that can
WH10NW- West Wing: be the one exception to that box of everything dice here.
WH10NW- West Wing: So we gave them an average lunch profile again. Here's our big, beautiful beam.
WH10NW- West Wing: This is an average. This isn't even just one, particularly a cherry pick pulse.
WH10NW- West Wing: And this is in nanoseconds, so 125
WH10NW- West Wing: here to here. So we call 250 nanoseconds. But, as you can see, there's a lot of odd features.
WH10NW- West Wing: actually, I was gonna show it, but I don't understand it well enough to defend it. But there's actually an animation of how loud this gets, for every time the recycler or the the delivery ring rotates this bill. This is one pulse coming out of the delivery ring, one revolution, one piece shaved by the electrostatic septum gets delivered down to the target.
WH10NW- West Wing: yeah. So
WH10NW- West Wing: the answer lies somewhere in here. I don't know. Personally, I don't know exactly what contributes to all that, but it has to do with the fact that there is a phase mismatch between the recycler which is upstream and the delivery ring which is down here, and the phase mismatch causes some wobbliness inside the delivery ring, and Mutu wants to use that as a feature, not a bug, because that instability and manipulating is what allows part of the beam to come outside of electrostatic setup for extraction.
WH10NW- West Wing: There are fast feedback sensors in the delivery ring. They're supposed to help optimize that. But it's never going to be perfectly tightly controlled, because then resonant extraction wouldn't work. So the short answer is. It's a complicated acceler physics problem that I don't know the details of.
WH10NW- West Wing: Fortunately, Guy, who does took the buyout last year. So we're still learning to understand that
WH10NW- West Wing: I hope to understand it. Someday we got people permissioning it to see if it's actually gonna look like that. But yeah.
WH10NW- West Wing: there's this is this is after some.
WH10NW- West Wing: It's after some quadruple focusing. But I don't think there's any longitudinal corrections downstream of the delivery.
WH10NW- West Wing: Think, is the answer. Oh, this is also downstream of the extinction system, which also, probably that's probably what gives these little guys.
WH10NW- West Wing: Oh, there's a
WH10NW- West Wing: there's a 6 harmonic extinction magnet that kicks away beam in between pulses, and that probably affects this. But
WH10NW- West Wing: about as much as I know.
WH10NW- West Wing: See?
WH10NW- West Wing: Fair question. I wish I knew more
WH10NW- West Wing: variations are okay. So this was, some variations were introduced by
WH10NW- West Wing: colleagues in Hawaii just to say, for some fluctuations of one gigasecond bins
WH10NW- West Wing: cross nanoseconds. It's much less important because you have a lot more
WH10NW- West Wing: statistics there. So this still isn't even the most realistic scenario. In fact, this is the more pessimistic scenario for Ace, because
WH10NW- West Wing: if you had a really messy beam that was just lots of pulses up and down. That would be great, because it likes fast, intense signals. So we actually just took this sort of, you know.
WH10NW- West Wing: Let's 6 Gaussians stacked on top of each other as sort of a can. This work, even from naive assumptions.
WH10NW- West Wing: What they found was that we need to go from ace
WH10NW- West Wing: the mace. So the ace pass, then.
WH10NW- West Wing: is te 1 0 in a loaded wave guide. So the cutoff frequency. 5 and 8 gigahertz.
WH10NW- West Wing: So that means that signals of durations greater than 100 picoseconds. You're gonna lose coherence in in the in the signal. So you're not gonna make. It's not going to have that effect of a bunch of particles of like one particle anymore at at times greater than one picoseconds, so sensitivity would be greatly reduced, for just out of the box ace, notably, the mutually beam is weird. We just spent some time talking about that on the last slide, so you probably can't count on the Oscarian effect. That doesn't mean it won't happen. You probably can't count on it.
WH10NW- West Wing: Ace would probably still see the signals from the Poisson fluctuation. So this is much weaker than the primary beam current. There might be some opportunity to do stuff with this in the future as like a supplementary detector. If we really wanted to understand pulse structure formation after the delivery ring.
WH10NW- West Wing: we would need to modify these
WH10NW- West Wing: spoiler comes from, modify the wave, guide to a tem wave response to avoid the cutoff frequency up there and capture the lower frequencies. Again, here low frequencies means a nanosecond. So that's slow, according to this analysis. So it's a slightly redesigned wave guide.
WH10NW- West Wing: and it's possible to do with coaxial cables and parallel plate transmission lines, parallel plate transmission lines actually closely match the original ace geometry. This was relevant because we like the small form factor. We don't need some big monolithic thing taking up space. So the goal was then to modify ace to a parallel plate. To, you know. Remove, remove a transmission line, remove the alumina, because you don't need. You don't need the shower material anymore
WH10NW- West Wing: in a similar form factor. So here's the idea.
WH10NW- West Wing: And I put preliminary across all this, too, because we're still studying this.
WH10NW- West Wing: So here is the idea. You have a box. It's not quite rectangular. It's why it's Tm mode where it's team you have these. It's cavities, one cavity.
WH10NW- West Wing: 12 by 6, by 4 fairy enclosure. With these details
WH10NW- West Wing: I can go over all of them.
WH10NW- West Wing: They wanted it. They they thought that using some ferrite, some Ferrox would be, would be good and help form a virtual ground and suppress any of the cavity resonance you might have with, because we start making complicated cavities, you get resonance effects. So on the right is just this inner part blown up. Here's the readouts.
WH10NW- West Wing: and then this is just support rods going through the upper blades.
WH10NW- West Wing: And yeah, is it? The part of the beam would go from there to there?
WH10NW- West Wing: So that's not what I was expecting when they came back to me.
WH10NW- West Wing: But this is hard to see. I'm gonna do this for online folks as well.
WH10NW- West Wing: Okay. First, st I'm gonna get to the pots and men they say there's some.
WH10NW- West Wing: If they use better ferrite they might be able to get better fidelity. But in truth, this plot green and can't even hardly see green, pink, red.
WH10NW- West Wing: blue, and purple.
WH10NW- West Wing: Forget which color there's a color here that's the nominal beam poles. But I mean, this is how closely it match
WH10NW- West Wing: the original poll structure.
WH10NW- West Wing: And this is zooming really far in somewhere.
WH10NW- West Wing: Oh, okay, so this is 4, 5. So this is just a zoomed in region of them, looking at individual toll structure.
WH10NW- West Wing: over time. So the point is
WH10NW- West Wing: they perfectly, I mean, in my perspective, they perfectly match the overlaid signal.
WH10NW- West Wing: So that's pretty much as far as you know. Analysis, slash, skeptical wild idea has gone.
WH10NW- West Wing: I don't have a whole lot more details on the results for this, which is, I mean, Brian is at the last meeting, not that long ago, where they showed some of this. So
WH10NW- West Wing: I kind of joked at the beginning that I'm happy to talk here, but I'm surprised it's like my 4th most interesting thing. I'm spending my time on, which is great. I'm happy to talk about it, but like that's also true of them. So we're all trying to, you know. Do our own day job that also, you know, trying to figure out how to make this work. So progress is a little slow, but that's mostly the results.
WH10NW- West Wing: Still happy to have it status now is that they have the parts cables computer Daq system in Hawaii. They're gonna they're working on initial construction. Got a couple of summer students.
WH10NW- West Wing: I mentioned this, I think, a couple of times rather than extraction.
WH10NW- West Wing: commissioning for the new 2 Ea line is underway now, and it's gonna continue underway.
WH10NW- West Wing: Or I'm sorry it's gonna continue for about a year at normal beam power, or I'm sorry lower than normal beam power. I think this is an excellent opportunity to well test all the things, but also commission mace and then calibrate it with the delivery ring instrumentation, because for a new detector. You want to be able to calibrate it, too.
WH10NW- West Wing: The goal, though, is eventual installation in the new experimental hall before our nominal Startup run one in 2027.
WH10NW- West Wing: So that's all I have from you, sweet. Now, the real reason everyone's here. It's only slide 34.
WH10NW- West Wing: So, as I said before
WH10NW- West Wing: we have 5 sigma sensitivity, if our mue is greater than 10 to the minus 17,
WH10NW- West Wing: but the rate is less than 10 to the minus 54. So we have lots of decades of searches for doing this. So what happened? Can we measure rmue down another order of magnitude or 2 or 3? And there's a couple of proposals for doing that. I'm not going to talk too much about them unless you help me, and I'll let you do it. U. 22. And then something called the advancing arm facility that's gonna have increased beam powers. But more importantly.
WH10NW- West Wing: there's a really interesting phenomenon in the physics where you get this plot on the right
WH10NW- West Wing: is the relative enhancement to new physics signal normalized to aluminum. That's a stopping target of you to me. If you want to know what I'll tell you. So one is just what you get with aluminum, and that's here.
WH10NW- West Wing: aluminum stopping target the one where the Muons convert.
WH10NW- West Wing: you actually get better new physics. Sensitivity by significant amounts in odd ways due to what you assume the operators are. You go to heavier targets, but this goes in the opposite direction of what you want. Remember to do this search. You need an extremely quiet window to search for your conversion. Electrons. That window is determined by the muonic
WH10NW- West Wing: lifetime of Adam.
WH10NW- West Wing: If you have a 250 nanoseconds, wide pulse and you want to use
WH10NW- West Wing: gold sensitivity, I'm just taking gold because it's an 80. I forget what I forget which 60 is.
WH10NW- West Wing: But if you go to a you get the lifetime is 10 to the minus 7 seconds.
WH10NW- West Wing: So you get the lifetime of the muon inside that atom. It's decaying before the beam goes away in normal mutility. So what we would do in mutuity. 2 or Amf is actually tighten up the pulses, even more probably not the resonant extraction, but just some manipulations out of Pip 2, which means that we need even tighter time profiles, longitudinal profiles of the beam.
WH10NW- West Wing: In order to be able to do this, we want to be able to search for new physics.
WH10NW- West Wing: but the the lifetime in heavier elements is so small that you need a really tight beam. Well, if you want shorter, more intense beams to monitor the Mutu E, then ace, or Mace is probably one of the best ways. You have to measure it, because we're already at the limit of of particle detectors we all know and love. This might be an excellent use case for it.
WH10NW- West Wing: Neon clatter again. Why, we're all here.
WH10NW- West Wing: sorry I laughed at this picture. Anyway. The optimum, there is something you've probably heard is 2 to 4 megawatts of 5 to 20 gev. Protons compressed to one to 3 nanoseconds, barring the insanity of that for a second. This is unquestionably fast enough for the Asgardian effect, and you could run that you could put the you could put these sensors just about anywhere in here, and you would get a signal to measure the proton beam intensity onto your target, or even downstream of the target. You're done, whatever
WH10NW- West Wing: I'm not gonna speculated exactly which ideas
WH10NW- West Wing: and where to play it, because
WH10NW- West Wing: it depends on how much you believe the diagram that's going to be your design. But it's pretty easy to imagine that you can instrument them somewhere.
WH10NW- West Wing: another one that people talk about a lot. So obviously, I'm a targets Guy. That's where I focus my my life. But a lot of people talk about the cooling channel
WH10NW- West Wing: and the wild idea I have. This probably won't work, but throw a pile.
WH10NW- West Wing: is. There's all these ideas of Muons, and then an absorber, and then you have your magnet manipulations. Try and, you know, condense the beam as you do the cooling. What are the cooling itself?
WH10NW- West Wing: You could somehow read out the Asgarian effect from it when you could you do it with, you know? Gas with an understood dielectric well enough. Could you do it with some rad hard, very light ceramic? I have no idea. But could you instrument the absorbers themselves by looking at the drink call produced inside? There.
WH10NW- West Wing: I don't know. Sounds fun, though, right alright. So, coming up on an hour.
WH10NW- West Wing: which is enough time for anyone to hear from me.
WH10NW- West Wing: Summary that, really I want you all to take away
WH10NW- West Wing: is that even existing beam lines require advanced instrumentation. Future clatter is great, but I've got problems now.
WH10NW- West Wing: is an excellent example for this. I haven't talked about nutrient facilities. That's an option. The beams are a little different there they tend to be longer. So it's a little bit trickier to get everything out of that. But it's possible, with some redesigned cavities and reading the the almost DC signal out of that may actually work. But anyway, existing beam lines are tough. Next generation ones are not going to be any kinder, and we do need to find ways to to measure what's going on.
WH10NW- West Wing: And really, I think the message of this is well, this, originally this is not the originally the intended application. Something like ace gives us substantial r and opportunities. Starting with the unorthodox environment of Youtube.
WH10NW- West Wing: Features. Not just neon collider
WH10NW- West Wing: and I think there's a good use of this for just any target based business program in the near and far term. So that's it. That's my summary.
WH10NW- West Wing: Roast me! Oh, thank you.
WH10NW- West Wing: right.
WH10NW- West Wing: I'll look to you any questions on the real place.
WH10NW- West Wing: and they can be about, you know
WH10NW- West Wing: other stuff not mentioned here, too. I just try to keep this focused on topic at hand. But if you need me to talk for 2 h, I'd have to improvise
WH10NW- West Wing: for the hamlet before divorce. Yeah, maybe maybe.
WH10NW- West Wing: Roger, did you have a another question? If so, please feel free to ask ask a lot.
Roger W Rusack: Hi, yeah, it's quite hard to hear you from there. Yeah, this is Roger University of Minnesota again. So one of the things. So a couple of things, 1st of all, for the mute application.
Roger W Rusack: length of the pulse is 100 nanoseconds, whereas the pulses which were which were looked at at the slack beam line were very intense, very short pulses. So
Roger W Rusack: how much do you rely upon the coherence of the of the
Roger W Rusack: the rate? The Rf. Effect in order to be able to detect it if it's incoherent, and arriving in a long pulse, are you just going to be below threshold.
WH10NW- West Wing: Yeah. So I'm sorry. Go ahead.
Roger W Rusack: Yeah, I just allow you just to miss it altogether, because you're just always below.
Roger W Rusack: and it doesn't add up because it's incoherent.
WH10NW- West Wing: Yeah. So you're exactly right. That was what was found is that we couldn't use Ace out of the box. So what ended up happening in their simulations. Is that yeah, they lose coherence. If the if the width is about 100 picoseconds you could hope to cherry, pick some 100 picosecond features inside of, you know. A few pulses. Maybe that would work.
WH10NW- West Wing: But yeah, this was exactly what to see, and they had to go from a Te wave guide to a tem to try and get the they call it almost DC. Response from the low from the the lower frequencies out there. So they're not relying on the
WH10NW- West Wing: on the coherence anymore. That's exactly right. Now. They're just looking at the induced field inside of these cavities as the beam passes through.
WH10NW- West Wing: Yeah.
Roger W Rusack: So.
WH10NW- West Wing: Throwing away the option of measuring that in some capacity, but probably not relying on it for instantaneous
WH10NW- West Wing: profiling. If that makes sense.
Roger W Rusack: Okay, do you have, like a figure of the through the energy conversion
Roger W Rusack: to what arrives at the end of the. So if you have a 1 particle goes through, produces so many
Roger W Rusack: Jules.
Roger W Rusack: and that property in in Rf. And that exists within some kind of frequency within a frequency domain, and then that has to propagate, and that has to couple to your Rf. Detector. So do you have, like the
Roger W Rusack: efficiency curve or the energy balance of this this type of.
WH10NW- West Wing: I definitely don't for this one. No, we've
WH10NW- West Wing: This is different enough that that. So I I think that exists for
WH10NW- West Wing: the original ace stuff that they did at the intense beam lines that you're talking about. And that is
WH10NW- West Wing: at so there's some slides here that show some of that. I can click them and try and find them if you want but this is different. This is different and new enough that I don't think
WH10NW- West Wing: like a J off for energy deposition thing of you know.
Roger W Rusack: Well, no, you have other. There are other tools for estimate.
WH10NW- West Wing: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Roger W Rusack: Rf. Production, from from particles.
WH10NW- West Wing: Yeah, yeah, they have those tools. What? I don't think we've asked them to pull out the sorry I keep flipping through trying to find.
WH10NW- West Wing: Oh, here we go. Yeah. So this is what they simulated. I don't think that's been pulled out of this. It's a good question. We just haven't gotten that far yet.
Roger W Rusack: Okay? I mean, that's that will be essential for making a realistic estimate of your signal.
WH10NW- West Wing: Yeah. Yeah. So that's 1 of the things that
Roger W Rusack: Right.
WH10NW- West Wing: Yeah, that we've we're hoping to pull out of this. Eventually a lot of it was running it through. I forget the name of the simulation. I can probably find it the simulation package if somebody says it'll probably recognize it. But yeah, they did that with with this, and that's essentially how they they fed, that the this nominal pulse in
WH10NW- West Wing: on the right, and then
WH10NW- West Wing: simulated the whole chain. But that intermediate step of of how does that energy get converted into the the wave that you're reading out. Yeah, I don't. I don't know. If
WH10NW- West Wing: we saw that exact number I'd have to go back right.
Roger W Rusack: But then this is a more detailed question. I don't know if you know. So you have a very high radiation environment.
Roger W Rusack: And the surfaces of the of the Waveguides themselves are going to get modified or oxidized during the operation. How sensitive are you to the
Roger W Rusack: to the, to the properties of the waveguide itself.
WH10NW- West Wing: Yep.
Roger W Rusack: Which will become, I presume, extremely hot.
WH10NW- West Wing: Probably less hot than than so I don't have a temperature. The reason.
Roger W Rusack: Excuse me, radioactive. I don't.
WH10NW- West Wing: Yeah, so okay, so yeah, so here, luckily, we benefit from the fact that there's no.
WH10NW- West Wing: there's no material in these wave guides. And so really it comes down to
WH10NW- West Wing: how does the field change due to structural like if you burn a hole through this? Obviously the field is going to be compromised won't be able to use it as well. The beam is going to be extremely diffused by this point, because downstream of everything but upstream of the beam dump. But that that is exactly something we need to look at. We haven't gotten there yet. But yeah, yes, I agree
WH10NW- West Wing: how rad hard is rad hard here. Luckily, we don't have to worry about whether both or point defects or both defects in a material actually affects charge collection, obviously. But but yeah, I don't have an answer that. But that's something we have to look into.
Roger W Rusack: Right. It's the. It's. It's the Rf properties of the surface of the material.
WH10NW- West Wing: Correct. Yeah.
Roger W Rusack: Okay.
WH10NW- West Wing: So it's yeah. So it'll be some measure of, you know.
WH10NW- West Wing: conductivity of the copper versus radiation dose for the proton beam that that hits it. Yeah, I agree.
Roger W Rusack: Yeah, you'll change. You'll change the dielectric constant.
WH10NW- West Wing: Well, here we we're not loading with the dielectric.
Roger W Rusack: No, no, of the surface of the material.
WH10NW- West Wing: Oh, sure! Sure!
Roger W Rusack: You'll get, you'll start to get
WH10NW- West Wing: Oh, yeah, yeah, I see. Yes, of course. Right? So, how does that change versus creating.
Roger W Rusack: Right damage.
WH10NW- West Wing: I agree. I've I've wondered this, too. We don't have an answer, but we also don't know what those to expect yet.
Roger W Rusack: And I presume we're using copper.
WH10NW- West Wing: Yeah, exactly.
Roger W Rusack: Okay.
Roger W Rusack: Doesn't have to be too too thick.
WH10NW- West Wing: Correct.
Roger W Rusack: Very light indeed, so.
WH10NW- West Wing: So, not immediately disqualified, but I still don't know the answer.
Roger W Rusack: You're okay. And that you said cryogenic detectors. Rf, detectors.
WH10NW- West Wing: Yeah. So in the the ace setup where they were considering single particle detection. Had a future collider. Sch. They they needed cryogenic amplifiers to get above to to get above the thermal noise of the of the
WH10NW- West Wing: but we don't have to use that here.
WH10NW- West Wing: for at mutually we don't have to do that because the intensity is behind us.
Roger W Rusack: Because you have just a lot of particles.
WH10NW- West Wing: Yes, exactly.
Roger W Rusack: But they're coming in, spread out over a hundred nanoseconds, so that may that requirement may change.
WH10NW- West Wing: Right. So this was without
WH10NW- West Wing: I think they're at the I don't remember exactly what they
WH10NW- West Wing: assume for their amplification level, but they claimed that. And again, I don't remember from exactly, and they don't need cryogenics to do this. But yeah, it's.
Roger W Rusack: Okay.
WH10NW- West Wing: If- if they needed it, I would probably say, I don't think that's gonna work, but they said that they probably don't. And so the goal is, is that so, luckily to to build all this, it's pretty cheap.
WH10NW- West Wing: We were able to just seek it by an operations budget to pay
WH10NW- West Wing: for. I'm I'm soliciting this openly. If other university partners want to help us solve problems, we can give some money but but to buy copper pieces, and to have them run things if we can commission at the the same, the same beam profile, and the delivery ring. They can build this in a reasonable amount of time. We can put a test piece down there, calibrate with the other instrumentation there, and it seems to work without needing cryogenic amplifiers like they promise
WH10NW- West Wing: great, and if it does end up getting screwed up, we figure how bad it is, and decide if it's still worth it or not.
Roger W Rusack: Okay, well, you do. You have an alternative? Then.
WH10NW- West Wing: No, this is part of why I'm I'm going this experimental route of no, we don't.
WH10NW- West Wing: We are. We are currently blind to everything in this red box that I had a fun time showing. Yeah.
Roger W Rusack: How? How detailed an Rf. Simulation have you done? Because you're going to interference effects and all that sort of stuff? It's not going to be trivial.
WH10NW- West Wing: Yeah, I don't. I didn't do it. I don't remember the details, but it was by Peter Gorham.
Roger W Rusack: Yeah, I know. I know. I know. Peter.
WH10NW- West Wing: Yeah.
Roger W Rusack: Okay.
Roger W Rusack: I'll give him a hard time. Thanks very much.
WH10NW- West Wing: Yeah. Tell you. Wonder how the hell do you know about that?
WH10NW- West Wing: What's the what's spatial resolution? I know the box, you said is but like with the different channels like, how small can this get? And it? It works well. How small can it get? That's a good question.
WH10NW- West Wing: I suspect it will depend on how you want to shave the cavity to actually read out. You're going to be dominated by the cavity size. To get these, the low frequency signals out. I'm not a cavity designer, so I couldn't tell you that off the top of my head for this particular application. You're probably pretty limited if you want to avoid, you know, cryogenic amplifiers and things like that, making things really small changes your waveguide properties which might which might give you a signal for a
WH10NW- West Wing: you're using a rectangular wave guide.
WH10NW- West Wing: You probably just want enough dielectric thickness to give you your signal.
WH10NW- West Wing: but I don't know of any limits unless you get to, you know, really small. In this case we pay the length of your way. It's a really small.
WH10NW- West Wing: It affects your yeah, so it'll probably still be the cut off frequency in some capacity. But I don't know the exact answer. I I don't think they've pushed the limits to be honest.
WH10NW- West Wing: Okay? And then I guess then, when you're looking at beam shapes, and you're not depending on the spatial resolution like this, you're depending on the induced fields in the in the way. That's right, I want. I want to integrate this pulse.
WH10NW- West Wing: They tell me how many protons are in it, and I want to integrate the next pulse, and I want to see what the difference is. Right.
WH10NW- West Wing: But I guess in the case of like well, since we are at the future colliders. Go for it for the Muon Collider, you know. If if you're looking at the demonstrator and you actually try to use this? I mean, wouldn't we be interested for the cooling, cooling demonstrator, for example, like, wouldn't we want to know the specific? Yeah resolution? Right? Yeah. So you'd actually want to see the the face space change as you as you go through cooling. Yeah. So there are a couple of different things you can do here?
WH10NW- West Wing: it's a half baked idea. So it's a half baked answer. But even just, you know, determining your
WH10NW- West Wing: how many neurons are left that you're trying to focus past your cooling channel is gonna tell you a lot.
WH10NW- West Wing: you will want some sort of resolution like I don't know how many you need to be perfectly honest if you're really trying to focus down so early on your spatial resolution is not going to be as important right? There's thousands of cells later on. Maybe you do get to the point where you can't use 8, because it's not finally segmented enough. I don't know
WH10NW- West Wing: But
WH10NW- West Wing: my goal is that somewhere along this giant train of cooling cells it could be used. But I don't know what the limit is. I'd have to think about that.
WH10NW- West Wing: I suspect. And I think everybody else that thinks about this, there's not gonna be one
WH10NW- West Wing: solution that is identical for all the cells, because I think the cells are identical. I'm more concerned about where you can't use L. Gads, like everyone wants to do. Or you know, almost any solid state detector because it's just gonna get fried.
WH10NW- West Wing: There's probably places for something like this.
WH10NW- West Wing: But I don't know what the cooling channel is. Gonna look like no one does
WH10NW- West Wing: But it seems, you know Waveguides are not horribly complicated. E. And M.
WH10NW- West Wing: They're not expensive to put together.
WH10NW- West Wing: Test and simulate.
WH10NW- West Wing: I bet we can come up with something.
WH10NW- West Wing: Yeah, it's kind of the pitch for now, which you know again.
WH10NW- West Wing: I'm not thinking about it too hard, because I got problems today.
WH10NW- West Wing: But yeah, it's we could run into a fundamental limit. That's that's entirely possible.
WH10NW- West Wing: but we we're talking about really intense, really small beams.
WH10NW- West Wing: And it seems well suited for it, most more so than a lot of the other things that you know, because the other ideas I've seen is like, Okay, well, what if we occasionally forced scattering of the beam from the cooling cell out? So we can measure things? Okay? Yeah, sure. But you know, you can't do that in C 2 at that point, because you're
WH10NW- West Wing: you're just disrupting. Now it's hard to do. This is still a destructive measurements. You can't just leave this in the beam, and the beam behaves the same way. It'll it'll disrupt the proton beam in a proton beam scenario. But here you're introducing
WH10NW- West Wing: disruptions because you have to do cooling so cool. Yeah, thank you. Yep.
WH10NW- West Wing: may have something. There's something chat. Robbie left a very nice comment. He said, thank you for a very interesting
WH10NW- West Wing: says, if you see, like the phone actually broken up.
WH10NW- West Wing: I guess what's interesting here is you're using this effect. There's there's 2 things that you've, I think, 2 different paradigms you could offer this session.
WH10NW- West Wing: And it sounds like the single particle. Detection
WH10NW- West Wing: is particularly challenging. But yeah, this this idea of monitoring the intensity. These really fine time bins is easier because you just have a lot of particles to deal with. Right? Yeah. So you need the same amount of currents. Do you just get it from one particle, or a lot or a lot of particles? So the the idea of this may be a better use.
WH10NW- West Wing: or or a better substitute for organs and extremely high radiation. This is still presumably coming from the idea, like coming from the angle of doing like monitoring the bean
WH10NW- West Wing: in this case. Yeah, okay, yeah, that's want a verification.
WH10NW- West Wing: right? That yeah. And that's the world that I live in. I wouldn't. I wouldn't do tracking with these, for example. No. So again, the position resolution.
WH10NW- West Wing: But if you want to instrument
WH10NW- West Wing: these cooling cycles to see how the intensities, how you're shaping this.
WH10NW- West Wing: I doubt you'd use a single timing, and probably the upstream end, because you have a very broad beam and you have. It's gonna be messier and
WH10NW- West Wing: you're gonna get fluctuation, probably even off the target and things like that. So I think I think this is a a better candidate for one of the earlier cooling downstream you have, you have. You could probably get away with
WH10NW- West Wing: I don't know some some decent wall current monitors and things like that that might work. Because, you know, when you're tightly focused, you're gonna get less residual radiation off the beam. But in the early parts. It's gonna be a
WH10NW- West Wing: mess. Yeah, I I fully agree. I don't think there's 1 instrumentation solution. But I mean, if there are really thousands of these cells, and each cell is a meter. We got a lot of instrumentation to figure out. So saying, it's just gonna be one thing. It's probably not accurate.
WH10NW- West Wing: There's nothing else in the room, I think we can, probably.
WH10NW- West Wing: and there, thanks for being on zoom connecting.